fbbbman Show full post »
dawgstyle
safetysqueezepleezzee11 wrote:
I personally don't even believe in 'weeding' players out in basketball in 7th and 8th grade.
We had 3 guys who were cut in 7th and 8th grade that ended up being starters my jr and sr
year on pretty successful teams 13-7 and 17-4 (includes tourney games).
In those days our 7th and 8th grade teams carried 10 players MAX.
We were ranked 5th in the 'small school'(mythical) division as Sr's going into the state tourney. Unfortunately,
there was only one tourney for all schools in basketball in those days.
The development of those 3 guys over a 2-3 year period was amazing. If they were in
school today, they would have been OUT of the program and they were our 3 highest
scoring players and rebounders jr and sr years. A year or 2 can make a huge difference.
I have seen other kids get weeded out from the high school I grad from as years went by and some of
those kids ended up being great athletes. They never went back to basketball though.
It might make sense in the big schools, but it makes no sense in the small public schools.

If they got weeded out today, they wouldn't go to camps and develop even faster.
Were no camps or aau back in those days.


You just cited a perfect example of how cutting kids from a team doesn't prevent them from continuing to play the game and develop. It cuts both ways. Kids will quit because they get cut. Kids will quit because of losing. At the end of the day, those who really love the game and want to play, will do so.
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
Quote 0 0
safetysqueezepleezzee11
dawgstyle wrote:
safetysqueezepleezzee11 wrote:
I personally don't even believe in 'weeding' players out in basketball in 7th and 8th grade.
We had 3 guys who were cut in 7th and 8th grade that ended up being starters my jr and sr
year on pretty successful teams 13-7 and 17-4 (includes tourney games).
In those days our 7th and 8th grade teams carried 10 players MAX.
We were ranked 5th in the 'small school'(mythical) division as Sr's going into the state tourney. Unfortunately,
there was only one tourney for all schools in basketball in those days.
The development of those 3 guys over a 2-3 year period was amazing. If they were in
school today, they would have been OUT of the program and they were our 3 highest
scoring players and rebounders jr and sr years. A year or 2 can make a huge difference.
I have seen other kids get weeded out from the high school I grad from as years went by and some of
those kids ended up being great athletes. They never went back to basketball though.
It might make sense in the big schools, but it makes no sense in the small public schools.

If they got weeded out today, they wouldn't go to camps and develop even faster.
Were no camps or aau back in those days.


You just cited a perfect example of how cutting kids from a team doesn't prevent them from continuing to play the game and develop. It cuts both ways. Kids will quit because they get cut. Kids will quit because of losing. At the end of the day, those who really love the game and want to play, will do so.


Are you aware that I am talking about 7th and 8th grade in 1957 and 1958?
It didn't prevent these guys because in the late 50's and early 60's there wasn't all the stuff
to do that there is today. The only kids I ever saw in any sport that quit because of losing
were guys who NEVER played. That would be in football, basketball and fastpitch softball for guys.
We had ONLY 2 sports that the guys played - football and basketball in my day. Baseball and track in the
spring was a joke because none of us on farms(about 90% of us) could get away from the farm work.
The baseball and track only had kids who lived in town or didn't live on a farm.
Little league for boys didn't start till 1969 in the area I grew up. We all played fastpitch softball from
about 1st grade on and almost none of us ever played baseball.

If you are going to tell me that in 2014, that 7th and 8th graders getting cut isn't going to end their
participation in the sport; I just don't buy that. I have seen it way way way too often as I cited.
The 3 guys I talked of were 'rare' birds. Few students in today's world of 'please me now' mentality
would do that. Sports were simply not the 'do all and end all' back in my day. We did actually play
for fun(as sappy as that sounds to you guys that were thinking pro careers). We played pickup basketball
year round in haymows of barns, on driveways, in gyms when we could get in, at the Y, etc etc.
We played softball and football whenever we could get enough guys together and a place to play.
And guess what???? We did it without ma and pa holding our hands and without fancy uniforms.
Just way too much regimentation in young kids sports these days. Let kids be kids!

If a parent needs to have their kids involved in extra-curriculum activities 'to keep them out of trouble', then
they need to learn how to be a good parent. Keeping kids busy doesn't keep them out of trouble.

Quote 0 0
dawgstyle
safetysqueezepleezzee11 wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:
safetysqueezepleezzee11 wrote:
I personally don't even believe in 'weeding' players out in basketball in 7th and 8th grade.
We had 3 guys who were cut in 7th and 8th grade that ended up being starters my jr and sr
year on pretty successful teams 13-7 and 17-4 (includes tourney games).
In those days our 7th and 8th grade teams carried 10 players MAX.
We were ranked 5th in the 'small school'(mythical) division as Sr's going into the state tourney. Unfortunately,
there was only one tourney for all schools in basketball in those days.
The development of those 3 guys over a 2-3 year period was amazing. If they were in
school today, they would have been OUT of the program and they were our 3 highest
scoring players and rebounders jr and sr years. A year or 2 can make a huge difference.
I have seen other kids get weeded out from the high school I grad from as years went by and some of
those kids ended up being great athletes. They never went back to basketball though.
It might make sense in the big schools, but it makes no sense in the small public schools.

If they got weeded out today, they wouldn't go to camps and develop even faster.
Were no camps or aau back in those days.


You just cited a perfect example of how cutting kids from a team doesn't prevent them from continuing to play the game and develop. It cuts both ways. Kids will quit because they get cut. Kids will quit because of losing. At the end of the day, those who really love the game and want to play, will do so.


Are you aware that I am talking about 7th and 8th grade in 1957 and 1958?
It didn't prevent these guys because in the late 50's and early 60's there wasn't all the stuff
to do that there is today. The only kids I ever saw in any sport that quit because of losing
were guys who NEVER played. That would be in football, basketball and fastpitch softball for guys.
We had ONLY 2 sports that the guys played - football and basketball in my day. Baseball and track in the
spring was a joke because none of us on farms(about 90% of us) could get away from the farm work.
The baseball and track only had kids who lived in town or didn't live on a farm.
Little league for boys didn't start till 1969 in the area I grew up. We all played fastpitch softball from
about 1st grade on and almost none of us ever played baseball.

If you are going to tell me that in 2014, that 7th and 8th graders getting cut isn't going to end their
participation in the sport; I just don't buy that. I have seen it way way way too often as I cited.
The 3 guys I talked of were 'rare' birds. Few students in today's world of 'please me now' mentality
would do that. Sports were simply not the 'do all and end all' back in my day. We did actually play
for fun(as sappy as that sounds to you guys that were thinking pro careers). We played pickup basketball
year round in haymows of barns, on driveways, in gyms when we could get in, at the Y, etc etc.
We played softball and football whenever we could get enough guys together and a place to play.
And guess what???? We did it without ma and pa holding our hands and without fancy uniforms.
Just way too much regimentation in young kids sports these days. Let kids be kids!

If a parent needs to have their kids involved in extra-curriculum activities 'to keep them out of trouble', then
they need to learn how to be a good parent. Keeping kids busy doesn't keep them out of trouble.


Listen either you want to go with today's standards or you want to go off the 50's. You can't sit here and cite 50's examples to me of why you are right and then say I am wrong to also use them.

If we are going off 2014, let me catch you up on the reality of today. Being a high level athlete today is a full time job. If it doesn't just come 100% natural it requires you to treat it like a full time job. Thats the reality of it. The amount of development that goes into kids today vs the 50s isn't even remotely the same.

Pick and era and lets talk about. Stop trying to compare what it is today vs what you grew up with. Times have changed.

I have a 10 year old niece who plays softball. She loves it. Her parents aren't big sports fans or anything, but she is all about it. They send her to camps and she plays traveling ball. She is really good. She pitches to me every chance she gets. She throws against the fence in the back yard. She walks around the house and simulates her pitching motion with EVERYTHING she picks up.

Her traveling team has another girl that is a good softball player, but she is not a good pitcher. Her parents INSIST that she should be allowed to pitch so she can get better. Their team LOSES games because this girl cannot throw a strike. She will literally walk 10 batters in an inning. You can insist it should be about fun and that kids should be able to handle losing, but it isn't fair to the rest of those girls that they should have to lose just so the other girl can have fun.

At some point you have to be realistic with people. No matter what your parents tell you, you can't be anything you want if you put your mind to it.
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
Quote 0 0
safetysqueezepleezzee11
A 'job' to play primary and secondary school athletics?
Now that makes me laugh. I realize many of today's parents have that mentality though
Most of these 'high level athletes' you cite are high level athletes in their parents minds only.
Perhaps 5% of athletes at the high school level could be considered high level and I think
that is even stretching it.
If it takes treating sport as full time job in high school athletics, our education system is
failing even more than I thought.

My point had nothing to do with the standards of the 50's, it was to let kids be kids
and not feel everything needs to be regimented for them.
By the way, I am not saying you or anyone is wrong.
I just come at this topic from a different perspective.

Often looking at what worked in the past is a pretty good guide to what may work now or in the future.
Keep that in mind. I have often found that looking back at the way stuff was done in the past makes
the job I am doing now, work much better. Not always, but pooh-poohing the past is just not smart.
Quote 0 0
dawgstyle
safetysqueezepleezzee11 wrote:
A 'job' to play primary and secondary school athletics?
Now that makes me laugh. I realize many of today's parents have that mentality though
Most of these 'high level athletes' you cite are high level athletes in their parents minds only.
Perhaps 5% of athletes at the high school level could be considered high level and I think
that is even stretching it.
If it takes treating sport as full time job in high school athletics, our education system is
failing even more than I thought.

My point had nothing to do with the standards of the 50's, it was to let kids be kids
and not feel everything needs to be regimented for them.
By the way, I am not saying you or anyone is wrong.
I just come at this topic from a different perspective.

Often looking at what worked in the past is a pretty good guide to what may work now or in the future.
Keep that in mind. I have often found that looking back at the way stuff was done in the past makes
the job I am doing now, work much better. Not always, but pooh-poohing the past is just not smart.


You may have missed my edit. Feel free to see the above example of my niece. Kids that put in the time and effort should not be held back by those who don't or aren't capable.
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
Quote 0 0
safetysqueezepleezzee11
DAWG
I wonder if that girl you talk of that cant pitch had a much older sister that was the same?
I umpired girl's softball of that age at one time and a team in the league did just what
you describe. After 8 straight walks, I went over and told the coach that I would call the
game if she didn't replace the pitcher. We went back and forth, but we ump those games
alone behind the plate; so when this coach realized I was serious she did put another girl in.
The next girl was almost as bad, so we didn't gain much. The first girl could throw pretty hard
but she had horrible mechanics and had no control at all. I even tried to work with her a bit, but
her mother told me she had a full-time coach. That left me speechless and that is hard to do.

Sounds like that team your niece is on is a nitemare. Parents telling the coach what to do?
I would never ever put up with that. I am surprised the other parents do.
Quote 0 0
dawgstyle
safetysqueezepleezzee11 wrote:
DAWG
I wonder if that girl you talk of that cant pitch had a much older sister that was the same?
I umpired girl's softball of that age at one time and a team in the league did just what
you describe. After 8 straight walks, I went over and told the coach that I would call the
game if she didn't replace the pitcher. We went back and forth, but we ump those games
alone behind the plate; so when this coach realized I was serious she did put another girl in.
The next girl was almost as bad, so we didn't gain much. The first girl could throw pretty hard
but she had horrible mechanics and had no control at all. I even tried to work with her a bit, but
her mother told me she had a full-time coach. That left me speechless and that is hard to do.

Sounds like that team your niece is on is a nitemare. Parents telling the coach what to do?
I would never ever put up with that. I am surprised the other parents do.


It drives me nuts. The girl is a good player. She is great at 1B. We have done quite a bit of work to teach my niece one very simple thing when she pitches, speed will come, just throw strikes. The other girls that pitch just try to throw as hard as they can.

It's not so much parents telling the coaches what to do. It's the same mentality you have been citing. It's supposed to be fun and the kids are still learning. So if she wants to pitch she should get a chance to.

The problem is when you allow people who are not capable to do something, the rest of the team suffers. And like it or not they do suffer. Kids don't like to lose. They especially don't like to lose because one girl is costing them the game. It builds animosity amongst the kids and leads to countless other issues.

Sometimes you just have to tell kids, sorry I get you love the game but you just aren't good enough. My High School coach finally told me that my Senior Year, someone probably should have had the conversation with me when I was 12.
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
Quote 0 0
safetysqueezepleezzee11
dawgstyle wrote:
safetysqueezepleezzee11 wrote:
DAWG
I wonder if that girl you talk of that cant pitch had a much older sister that was the same?
I umpired girl's softball of that age at one time and a team in the league did just what
you describe. After 8 straight walks, I went over and told the coach that I would call the
game if she didn't replace the pitcher. We went back and forth, but we ump those games
alone behind the plate; so when this coach realized I was serious she did put another girl in.
The next girl was almost as bad, so we didn't gain much. The first girl could throw pretty hard
but she had horrible mechanics and had no control at all. I even tried to work with her a bit, but
her mother told me she had a full-time coach. That left me speechless and that is hard to do.

Sounds like that team your niece is on is a nitemare. Parents telling the coach what to do?
I would never ever put up with that. I am surprised the other parents do.


It drives me nuts. The girl is a good player. She is great at 1B. We have done quite a bit of work to teach my niece one very simple thing when she pitches, speed will come, just throw strikes. The other girls that pitch just try to throw as hard as they can.

It's not so much parents telling the coaches what to do. It's the same mentality you have been citing. It's supposed to be fun and the kids are still learning. So if she wants to pitch she should get a chance to.

The problem is when you allow people who are not capable to do something, the rest of the team suffers. And like it or not they do suffer. Kids don't like to lose. They especially don't like to lose because one girl is costing them the game. It builds animosity amongst the kids and leads to countless other issues.

Sometimes you just have to tell kids, sorry I get you love the game but you just aren't good enough. My High School coach finally told me that my Senior Year, someone probably should have had the conversation with me when I was 12.


Pitching for girls at that age is ALL strikes. Not many girls can even hit the strikes at 10. If a young girl has even
a bit of speed at that age and throws strikes, she is almost unhittable.
One thing I do with young girls is have them throw from a spot where they can throw the ball over the plate
for a strike(as practice that is). That gives them confidence. Start at 25 feet if need be with no mound, then
slowly move back. If able to, have them increase velocity as they master the distance.
Try to keep all mechanics as 'tight' and basic as possible with all body movement forward.
Have them throw right down the 'pipe'. (It is practice afterall) BUT have a plate to throw over ALWAYS. It does
make a difference to throw with a plate there(at least it did for me).
I go around and around with 'supposed' pitching coaches. This is exactly how I learned to throw fastpitch
softball back on the farm with a neighbor kid catching me. I was probably 10-11 when I started. I doubt
I got back to the men's distance(and throwing strikes that is) till I was 13 or older.
A buddy of my dad's was one of the best men's fastpitch pitchers in the Midwest and he was the guy who
told me to do this and worked with me. When I could consistently throw strikes he instructed me on rises,drops,changeups and basic pitch placement. It simply isn't brain surgery. It takes time to master this
'skill' and it is a SKILL one has to develop. I have never seen anyone(guy or girl) who was a natural at pitching fastpitch softball. Even with moderate athletic ability, if a person wants to work at pitching they can with
hours and hours of working at it become good or even great. I know of men I played with that were not
good athletes but were great great fastpitch softball pitchers because they master this one skill. They often
couldn't field, run or hit; but 90% of the game is pitching and they could do that.

Most coaches spend way too much time instructing young pitchers(girls) how to throw the different pitches.
They also have these girls working on pitch placement BEFORE they have even mastered throwing strikes
consistently. You just cant put the cart before the horse. I work a bit with mechanics, but basically just try to
keep the young girls from using the POOR mechanics that most got from parents or 'supposed' pitching coaches.
It is a very very difficult skill to develop and become great. I was able to do very well in the leagues I played
in but when I played with traveling teams and open ball, I caught and played 3rd as the best pitchers were far
far better than me. I just never developed the vertical movement which separates the greats from the average
pitchers. The good hitters(girls and guys) eventually all can hit speed. It is a pitcher that can move the ball
vertically and set batters up that succeeds at the top levels of each, be it high school, college girls or the men's open
game.
Quote 0 0
fbbbman
With the proposed point system BT and Elk Mound would have stayed in their enrollment divisions this year if they went to state again for a second year a row as I read it and then may have had a possible move up in the 3rd year if they went again in the 3rd year.
Quote 0 0
innercityivan
fbbbman wrote:
db11 wrote:
fbbbman wrote:
db11 wrote:
fbbbman wrote:
db11 wrote:
Considering B-T has continued to suddenly have quality players from other schools move into their district, maybe D4 is more appropriate for them anyway...[]


I assume DB you are talking about Josh Peterson and Jordan Kappen in 2004-2005 and Colton Flick this year as a senior, they are the only 3 players to move into the BT district since the school was created in 1989. That's a pretty low number of "movein's", all of the other players for BT were from BT in the elemantary years.

If you have any others in mind DB, I sure would like to hear their names, otherwise I assume that those 3 are who you mean []


There's at least one other from recent times that came from another Dairyland school...Pooler, perhaps? I don't have time to go back and look right now, but I wasn't even thinking about Peterson and Kappen when I originally posted.

That's still quite a few high profile kids just showing up on your doorstep for such a small school.


DB11, Pooler origanally was a BT student from elemantary, he went to Lincoln for one year and then came back so he was an original BT student.

As far as "High Profile Kids showing up on our doorstep, they were "homegrowen"...the reason you can't think of any is because there weren't any that moved in, but we would of gladly taken them. If you go back, please let me know who they were. I've been this district and followed BT basketball since the merger in 1989, before that, the Taylor School District after I was born until 1989.


My point stands. In either case, it still fits the issue of OE and its effects on lower divisions.

I just don't like when successful programs play the victim in such a situation. Public or especially private.

Take Dominican out of this equation and I bet your complaints about being in D4 would be heavily muted as B-T would be a heavy favorite.



I appreciate your comments DB11 about BT being a heavy favorite but we do have different personnel than last year, and I hope you are right!! and maybe so but I think D4 is loaded with Cuba City, Aquinas, Luther, Mineral Point and Melrose Mindoro and others that I may not know about in D4 south and Dominican being there with Diamond Stone and company. I'm trying to make a point without whining, I'm sorry it comes across that way and I don't do a good job of that. BT is going to have a tougher road in D4 I think than D5 and again not taking away from any D5 teams. The rule is in place, it is what it is, and BT will go on and play in D4 or D5, just with their enrollment I feel D5 would have been better.Things go on.


Looking at the records, maybe BT did take their ball and go home this season..... [smooch]
Quote 0 0
fbbbman
innercityivan wrote:
fbbbman wrote:
db11 wrote:
fbbbman wrote:
db11 wrote:
fbbbman wrote:
db11 wrote:
Considering B-T has continued to suddenly have quality players from other schools move into their district, maybe D4 is more appropriate for them anyway...[]


I assume DB you are talking about Josh Peterson and Jordan Kappen in 2004-2005 and Colton Flick this year as a senior, they are the only 3 players to move into the BT district since the school was created in 1989. That's a pretty low number of "movein's", all of the other players for BT were from BT in the elemantary years.

If you have any others in mind DB, I sure would like to hear their names, otherwise I assume that those 3 are who you mean []


There's at least one other from recent times that came from another Dairyland school...Pooler, perhaps? I don't have time to go back and look right now, but I wasn't even thinking about Peterson and Kappen when I originally posted.

That's still quite a few high profile kids just showing up on your doorstep for such a small school.


DB11, Pooler origanally was a BT student from elemantary, he went to Lincoln for one year and then came back so he was an original BT student.

As far as "High Profile Kids showing up on our doorstep, they were "homegrowen"...the reason you can't think of any is because there weren't any that moved in, but we would of gladly taken them. If you go back, please let me know who they were. I've been this district and followed BT basketball since the merger in 1989, before that, the Taylor School District after I was born until 1989.


My point stands. In either case, it still fits the issue of OE and its effects on lower divisions.

I just don't like when successful programs play the victim in such a situation. Public or especially private.

Take Dominican out of this equation and I bet your complaints about being in D4 would be heavily muted as B-T would be a heavy favorite.



I appreciate your comments DB11 about BT being a heavy favorite but we do have different personnel than last year, and I hope you are right!! and maybe so but I think D4 is loaded with Cuba City, Aquinas, Luther, Mineral Point and Melrose Mindoro and others that I may not know about in D4 south and Dominican being there with Diamond Stone and company. I'm trying to make a point without whining, I'm sorry it comes across that way and I don't do a good job of that. BT is going to have a tougher road in D4 I think than D5 and again not taking away from any D5 teams. The rule is in place, it is what it is, and BT will go on and play in D4 or D5, just with their enrollment I feel D5 would have been better.Things go on.


Looking at the records, maybe BT did take their ball and go home this season..... [smooch]


I don't know what you think is a bad record....8-4 is a pretty good one I say....unless you're a BT hater I suppose then you're just digging to find something bad to hate them with....if you feel you have to hate BT with something 2 years ago they had the worst record in school history 8-13...but... that same group of players worked hard and made it back to state last year as the D4 State Runner Up, not bad so I don't think they "took their ball and went home" at 8-4, far from it, those are just words from you for what ever reason you feel you have to hate....
Quote 0 0
wissportsnet

Boys Basketball Alumni Round-up: February 21st, from @ColtonWilson23 #wisbb -- https://t.co/0K6CZzZWpf https://t.co/715tfpBGVS

wissportsnet

WSN15: Boys Basketball Top Teams #12 -- Two NCAA Division I players at one WIAA Division 4 school = state champions… https://t.co/1MThqzce9L

wissportsnet

Predicting winners of every state wrestling title plus a look By The Numbers, from @Nate_Woelfel -… https://t.co/HgU1bLP7d6

wissportsnet

Join the free Boys Basketball Playoff Pick 'Em Contest; Staff picks coming Tuesday #wisbb -- https://t.co/Y6yTA3OgP8 https://t.co/hA6Uyw9uje