blade12 Show full post »
db11
blade12 wrote:
Saw this over the weekend https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27125793/these-kids-ticking-bombs-threat-youth-basketball

Still wondering what the WIAA is thinking in continuing to allow expanded play/off season contact etc. Nice that the article uses a guy from UW as a source and authority. You'd think the WIAA has access to him for input as well.


Seems a large percentage of the coaches wanted it. And I get it, with many conferences being large or split into divisions with crossovers, there's precious little chance to test yourself outside of the league for many programs. Whether your view is it's right or wrong, Wisconsin has generally been behind the curve in games allowed.

This has far more to do with the proliferation of the Grassroots scene down to the first grade level rather than a 20+ game season over the course of three months.

Nobody was a "ticking time bomb" when the season was 20 games from late November to early March and then you went and ran track for two months, maybe had a few workouts in the summer and then played football in the fall. Now, for a lot of kids ages 10-18 the weekends are filled with extensive travel, busy game schedules and nary time to recover...to say nothing if you're actually one of those kids who also plays a spring sport/does summer football workouts.
https://twitter.com/barwickipedia - Follow me. Because we all need a bit of sports snark in our lives.

"Doin' right ain't got no end."
-The Outlaw Josey Wales

"'Allegedly' is right, Mr. Polian. I have a hole in my ear drum, I'd never go for a swim, no matter how drunk me is."
-Pat McAfee
Quote 0 0
blade12
db11 wrote:


Seems a large percentage of the coaches wanted it. And I get it, with many conferences being large or split into divisions with crossovers, there's precious little chance to test yourself outside of the league for many programs. Whether your view is it's right or wrong, Wisconsin has generally been behind the curve in games allowed.

This has far more to do with the proliferation of the Grassroots scene down to the first grade level rather than a 20+ game season over the course of three months.

Nobody was a "ticking time bomb" when the season was 20 games from late November to early March and then you went and ran track for two months, maybe had a few workouts in the summer and then played football in the fall. Now, for a lot of kids ages 10-18 the weekends are filled with extensive travel, busy game schedules and nary time to recover...to say nothing if you're actually one of those kids who also plays a spring sport/does summer football workouts.


A couple of things; I have talked to just a few coaches, none even knew this was being pushed and none knew if this starts in 2019-20 or 2020-21. Some don't know if this is a done deal or not and others tell me it still has to be voted on by membership. Most were worried about getting that many games in and getting refs. In the grand scheme of things adding 2 games instead of 2 practices isn't going to make a bit of difference on the injury front but I found it ironic that the article uses a source from the UW, who as I mentioned, the WIAA would have easy access to if they wanted it. That source would seem to advocate for less play and less specialization, less repetitive use of their bodies, but the WIAA isn't moving in that direction with this or with the recent expanded summer contact rules.

I think the WIAA is sending mixed messages, they try to promote multi sport athletes and tout the benefits of that but then they turn around and keep expanding games and contact to make it more of a challenge to keep kids involved in multiple sports. 
Quote 0 0
db11
I know of plenty around this neck of the woods who have clamored for expanded schedules for years. Different mentalities to the rest of the state again...

Getting games in is less of a problem if you augment the current rules about when you can play games. In this era of "always cancel school," there's no reason for the games not to go on if the snow is done and the roads are cleared by mid-day. Way too many times recently people have been left to wonder "why'd we cancel again" and then unnecessary scheduling headaches ensue.

As far as mixed messages...well, I have a hypothesis about wanting to keep its "cash cow" viable at the school level by relaxing certain rules while not completely keeling over to the Grassroots power brokers. It's a tough spot.
https://twitter.com/barwickipedia - Follow me. Because we all need a bit of sports snark in our lives.

"Doin' right ain't got no end."
-The Outlaw Josey Wales

"'Allegedly' is right, Mr. Polian. I have a hole in my ear drum, I'd never go for a swim, no matter how drunk me is."
-Pat McAfee
Quote 0 0
blade12
db11 wrote:
I know of plenty around this neck of the woods who have clamored for expanded schedules for years. Different mentalities to the rest of the state again...

Getting games in is less of a problem if you augment the current rules about when you can play games. In this era of "always cancel school," there's no reason for the games not to go on if the snow is done and the roads are cleared by mid-day. Way too many times recently people have been left to wonder "why'd we cancel again" and then unnecessary scheduling headaches ensue.

As far as mixed messages...well, I have a hypothesis about wanting to keep its "cash cow" viable at the school level by relaxing certain rules while not completely keeling over to the Grassroots power brokers. It's a tough spot.


IMO it's a tough spot because they put themselves in it. They gave an inch more than a few times and the grassroots programs took a mile and more every time.  Whose side is the WBCA on? That might be a wolf in sheeps clothing. Seems like they are working for their own agenda but the WIAA gives them credence as a watchdog for HS sports.
Quote 0 0
db11
blade12 wrote:


IMO it's a tough spot because they put themselves in it. They gave an inch more than a few times and the grassroots programs took a mile and more every time.  Whose side is the WBCA on? That might be a wolf in sheeps clothing. Seems like they are working for their own agenda but the WIAA gives them credence as a watchdog for HS sports.


A possibility...the ever-increasing number of HS coaches who also coach at least one AAU team is ever-growing, mind you.
https://twitter.com/barwickipedia - Follow me. Because we all need a bit of sports snark in our lives.

"Doin' right ain't got no end."
-The Outlaw Josey Wales

"'Allegedly' is right, Mr. Polian. I have a hole in my ear drum, I'd never go for a swim, no matter how drunk me is."
-Pat McAfee
Quote 1 0
bne55
db11 wrote:
I know of plenty around this neck of the woods who have clamored for expanded schedules for years. Different mentalities to the rest of the state again...

Getting games in is less of a problem if you augment the current rules about when you can play games. In this era of "always cancel school," there's no reason for the games not to go on if the snow is done and the roads are cleared by mid-day. Way too many times recently people have been left to wonder "why'd we cancel again" and then unnecessary scheduling headaches ensue.

As far as mixed messages...well, I have a hypothesis about wanting to keep its "cash cow" viable at the school level by relaxing certain rules while not completely keeling over to the Grassroots power brokers. It's a tough spot.


It always mind boggled me when they would cancel a game because the other team didnt have school and we did or vice versa. As far as I know some schools say they cant or its a WIAA thing but its a sole school decision. We found out late last year our school had nothing that said we couldn't so one day we didnt have school but still played and like you mentioned by game time everything was fine weather wise.
2016 Derek Lendosky Poster of the year
@brent_erdmann
Quote 0 0
blade12
db11 wrote:


A possibility...the ever-increasing number of HS coaches who also coach at least one AAU team is ever-growing, mind you.


I think that is very true and is why I would caution the WIAA to temper the credence they give to the WBCA and other special interest groups.  
Quote 0 0
oldballcoach1
A couple of things to keep in mind here guys when talking about playing games on nights when school is called off.  First, we are placing a whole lot of importance on playing a game.  Ensuring the safety of all students is the #1 priority for all school administrators and if a game isn't played on a given night, then so be it. 

Yes, something bad can happen anytime, but, would you want to be the administrator who cancels school and then agrees to let your basketball team get on a bus and have that bus get into an accident on the way to the game??  Or a player driving to a game slides off the road and gets hurt or worse yet.  In the grand scheme of things, just how important is it to play a game??  

It seems like we are forgetting these kids are students first and then athletes second.  I can say this after being around coaching and administration for quite a while- if our school is cancelled and I allow our boys/girls basketball team to play and something were to happen to a player coming into school to get on the bus - to the bus on the way to or back from a game - probably a good chance I am looking for a new job at the end of the year.  

Again, this increase was driven by a very few coaches that have been looking to increase their ability to travel to out of state tournaments.  Input was not sought from other coaches and most were shocked when it came out.  
Quote 0 0
blade12
A couple of things to keep in mind here guys when talking about playing games on nights when school is called off.  First, we are placing a whole lot of importance on playing a game.  Ensuring the safety of all students is the #1 priority for all school administrators and if a game isn't played on a given night, then so be it. 

Yes, something bad can happen anytime, but, would you want to be the administrator who cancels school and then agrees to let your basketball team get on a bus and have that bus get into an accident on the way to the game??  Or a player driving to a game slides off the road and gets hurt or worse yet.  In the grand scheme of things, just how important is it to play a game??  

It seems like we are forgetting these kids are students first and then athletes second.  I can say this after being around coaching and administration for quite a while- if our school is cancelled and I allow our boys/girls basketball team to play and something were to happen to a player coming into school to get on the bus - to the bus on the way to or back from a game - probably a good chance I am looking for a new job at the end of the year.  

Again, this increase was driven by a very few coaches that have been looking to increase their ability to travel to out of state tournaments.  Input was not sought from other coaches and most were shocked when it came out.  


Safety concerns are very valid. Students before athletes; also valid but try telling parents and kids that.

I'd be really curious to know of the 2 extra games how many were played in WI vs another WI HS and how many were used to go out of state and play a non WI team. They won't track this but if I was the WIAA I'd say the 2 additional games must be approved after you submit your 22 game schedule just to see who, what and how many schools are heading out of state to play.
Quote 0 0
db11
A couple of things to keep in mind here guys when talking about playing games on nights when school is called off.  First, we are placing a whole lot of importance on playing a game.  Ensuring the safety of all students is the #1 priority for all school administrators and if a game isn't played on a given night, then so be it. 

Yes, something bad can happen anytime, but, would you want to be the administrator who cancels school and then agrees to let your basketball team get on a bus and have that bus get into an accident on the way to the game??  Or a player driving to a game slides off the road and gets hurt or worse yet.  In the grand scheme of things, just how important is it to play a game??  

It seems like we are forgetting these kids are students first and then athletes second.  I can say this after being around coaching and administration for quite a while- if our school is cancelled and I allow our boys/girls basketball team to play and something were to happen to a player coming into school to get on the bus - to the bus on the way to or back from a game - probably a good chance I am looking for a new job at the end of the year.  

Again, this increase was driven by a very few coaches that have been looking to increase their ability to travel to out of state tournaments.  Input was not sought from other coaches and most were shocked when it came out.  


It's a crutch though. I get things in the more rural areas are less likely to "clear up" in a timely fashion, but with some of the absurd cancellations we had in the Milwaukee-area last year and then you had admins whining about being overwhelmed with reschedules...well, a large chunk of that could have been avoided with a little flexibility.

bne55 outlined one of the larger issues in that one district calls off school while the other doesn't and they both are screwed. There's a need for more flexibility. Make a judgment call, but please get rid of any policy that says extracurricular events cannot occur on days where school is cancelled. This is Wisconsin. Conditions improve/deteriorate pretty quickly. It may be awful at 7 AM, but particularly in more urban areas, often times the roads are dry/clear within a few hours. There was one day last year where overnight snowfall made for treacherous morning travel, and they cancelled school pretty much over the whole area. Brookfield Central and Marquette decided to still play their game since by the afternoon all the main roads were clear. It went on as if it was a normal Tuesday night. One less rescheduling headache.

Yes, let's not travel from Bayfield to Owen on snow-covered roads, but Wauwatosa-to-Brookfield on plowed/treated roads? Neenah-to-Oshkosh?

I just think many admins would appreciate at least the ability to make a judgment call a few hours before frosh/JV tip-off than say something mandatory and set-in-stone 24 hours before.
https://twitter.com/barwickipedia - Follow me. Because we all need a bit of sports snark in our lives.

"Doin' right ain't got no end."
-The Outlaw Josey Wales

"'Allegedly' is right, Mr. Polian. I have a hole in my ear drum, I'd never go for a swim, no matter how drunk me is."
-Pat McAfee
Quote 0 0
db11
Also, let's not lose sight of something very important here. This expansion gives more flexibility to schools in scheduling.

However, much like 22 games or even 20 back in the day...it isn't mandatory.
https://twitter.com/barwickipedia - Follow me. Because we all need a bit of sports snark in our lives.

"Doin' right ain't got no end."
-The Outlaw Josey Wales

"'Allegedly' is right, Mr. Polian. I have a hole in my ear drum, I'd never go for a swim, no matter how drunk me is."
-Pat McAfee
Quote 0 0
oldballcoach1
db11 wrote:


It's a crutch though. I get things in the more rural areas are less likely to "clear up" in a timely fashion, but with some of the absurd cancellations we had in the Milwaukee-area last year and then you had admins whining about being overwhelmed with reschedules...well, a large chunk of that could have been avoided with a little flexibility.

bne55 outlined one of the larger issues in that one district calls off school while the other doesn't and they both are screwed. There's a need for more flexibility. Make a judgment call, but please get rid of any policy that says extracurricular events cannot occur on days where school is cancelled. This is Wisconsin. Conditions improve/deteriorate pretty quickly. It may be awful at 7 AM, but particularly in more urban areas, often times the roads are dry/clear within a few hours. There was one day last year where overnight snowfall made for treacherous morning travel, and they cancelled school pretty much over the whole area. Brookfield Central and Marquette decided to still play their game since by the afternoon all the main roads were clear. It went on as if it was a normal Tuesday night. One less rescheduling headache.

Yes, let's not travel from Bayfield to Owen on snow-covered roads, but Wauwatosa-to-Brookfield on plowed/treated roads? Neenah-to-Oshkosh?

I just think many admins would appreciate at least the ability to make a judgment call a few hours before frosh/JV tip-off than say something mandatory and set-in-stone 24 hours before.


I understand what you are saying db.  I would counter a couple of things though - respectfully.  An AD is paid to schedule and figure out dates to re-schedule and everything that goes with that.  When I hear them complain, I remind them that is their job.  Those that are exclusive to functioning in a position of overseeing activities only and do not have any other administrative duties like an AP - they have the time to do the re-schedule work.  So I don't buy the overburden on AD's to have to re-schedule games.  

Having a policy in place is certainly within the school's authority.  However, I would want that policy to be firm and backed by the school district and board.  And in writing.  As an administrator, I hate to say it, but in the world we live in today, you have to CYA.  

Lets not lose sight that school comes #1.  Whether a game is played or not really comes far down the list of what is important in the day to day operations of a school.  People can be upset by a game being postponed on a given night, but quite honestly, they should be more upset when a class isn't offered because of a budget cut or they are forced to pay for their kid to go on a field trip because the school can't.  
Quote 0 0
blade12


I understand what you are saying db.  I would counter a couple of things though - respectfully.  An AD is paid to schedule and figure out dates to re-schedule and everything that goes with that.  When I hear them complain, I remind them that is their job.  Those that are exclusive to functioning in a position of overseeing activities only and do not have any other administrative duties like an AP - they have the time to do the re-schedule work.  So I don't buy the overburden on AD's to have to re-schedule games.  

Having a policy in place is certainly within the school's authority.  However, I would want that policy to be firm and backed by the school district and board.  And in writing.  As an administrator, I hate to say it, but in the world we live in today, you have to CYA.  

Lets not lose sight that school comes #1.  Whether a game is played or not really comes far down the list of what is important in the day to day operations of a school.  People can be upset by a game being postponed on a given night, but quite honestly, they should be more upset when a class isn't offered because of a budget cut or they are forced to pay for their kid to go on a field trip because the school can't.  


Theoretically yes but let's also not lose sight that if you don't have the right coach, the right other players, a tough schedule, travel plans to play in some prestigious event, tough conduct policies, etc. kids will leave your school to go elsewhere.

Not all schools have full time AD's and asst AD's, some AD's are also coaches or teachers so while it is in their job description they do have other things to coordinate. Just from a sports perspective on any given day that there is a snow day, they could have to reschedule BBB, GBB, wrestling, swimming, hockey, powerlifting, transportation, refs, table personnel/volunteers, gym practice schedules, etc. and do so with several different schools so it's not just 1 call and that's all.

Back to the topic at hand, this just really has the feel of a handful of schools that want to prioritize bball over almost all else and all the others will be drug along for the ride feeling compelled to keep up or else. My very best guess is the ones driving this are; larger schools, have a high % of single sport athletes, have a higher number of transfer students than the norm, are not D4 or D5 schools and for the most part not D3 either and are mostly from the Milwaukee area with a few others from metro areas sprinkled in.

If this really has anything to do with larger conferences that don't have scheduling flexibility then create smaller conferences....  where have I heard that before???  
Quote 0 0
db11
Oh, this definitely isn't for the small schools.

That said, it's likely to be much ado about nothing in the end.
https://twitter.com/barwickipedia - Follow me. Because we all need a bit of sports snark in our lives.

"Doin' right ain't got no end."
-The Outlaw Josey Wales

"'Allegedly' is right, Mr. Polian. I have a hole in my ear drum, I'd never go for a swim, no matter how drunk me is."
-Pat McAfee
Quote 0 0
blade12
"It was in the newsletter, you do read the newsletters don't you?"  

Travis Wilson
 
@travisWSN
1h
 
Dave Anderson states that notes from process that goes through Sports Advisory Committee, Advisory Council, and ultimately Board of Control are posted publicly for schools to review prior to vote.
Quote Tweet
Travis Wilson
 
@travisWSN
· 1h
At today's meeting and at yesterday's meeting, administrators express frustration that basketball was expanded to 24 regular season games. Some felt it was a bit of a blindside for admins, like Shot Clock was a couple years ago.
Quote 0 0
wissportsnet

Boys Basketball Alumni Round-up: February 21st, from @ColtonWilson23 #wisbb -- https://t.co/0K6CZzZWpf https://t.co/715tfpBGVS

wissportsnet

WSN15: Boys Basketball Top Teams #12 -- Two NCAA Division I players at one WIAA Division 4 school = state champions… https://t.co/1MThqzce9L

wissportsnet

Predicting winners of every state wrestling title plus a look By The Numbers, from @Nate_Woelfel -… https://t.co/HgU1bLP7d6

wissportsnet

Join the free Boys Basketball Playoff Pick 'Em Contest; Staff picks coming Tuesday #wisbb -- https://t.co/Y6yTA3OgP8 https://t.co/hA6Uyw9uje