nkartos Show full post »
1wucksey_old
You have been right on my dear friend and we have to keep remembering this is high school basketball. This is a sport that is an extension of the classroom, nothing more and nothing less. These are teaching times for both the coaches (teachers) and the pupils (players) and what ever happens on the court at any level, any division, and tournament is part of learning to be good students, athletes and future human beings. I have never booed in my whole life at a high school sporting event and I was quite surprised the other evening when this took place. I never question why a certain strategy or no certain strategy. Besides, these are 2 of the best coaches in the whole state and they know more than everyone in the crowd about what they planned to do in any situation that came up in the game. They have both put their whole being into their teams, their players and they are doing what they feel is best to win the game. I believe the score was 12-12 at halftime so what did all those boos mean in the game of life. Boos are just an extension of people's frustrations in their own lives and unfortunately these young pupils have to listen to enough negativity must less at the biggest game and time of their young lives. I thought it was sad but I realize our society is negatized by so much anymore it's just further shows how sad we have become. I walk with the dear Lord and I just don't have anytime time or oxygen to waste on booing. I wear a t-shirt to a lot of games that says on the front H.B.A. (instead of N.B.A!) and it means Heaven Bound Association and that's all life is really about when you get down to the nuts and bolts of everything. This is just a blink compared to what all eternity is going to be like. Keep up the great work Nicholas as your opinions are important but do say something about how crazy we are to be "booing" in the classroom when the pupils are trying to learn and the teachers are teaching.
May our dear Lord's PEACE be with you and yours always and forever.
Quote 0 0
baune13
Running an offense vs. a zone defense is a strategy. Standing at half court holding the ball involves no strategy. Not playing is not a strategy. Diener deserved to be booed, not the kids, and I believe that is who people were booing. Also, referring to the article on the main page of this website, the difference between Vincent's antics, and West's stalling in the 4th quarter is just that. It was the 4th quarter and they had a double digit lead. Big difference.
Quote 0 0
jtownsupporter
my favorite quote from the article nick....

"The proof is in the pudding when it comes to Tom Diener. The guy knows what he is doing. He has won five state titles running the same stall."
Against the Grain -- DP Show
Prince Fielder will sign with some team for 7 years $160 mil
Quote 0 0
ballfan55
Quote:
ORIGINAL: baune13

Running an offense vs. a zone defense is a strategy. Standing at half court holding the ball involves no strategy. Not playing is not a strategy. Diener deserved to be booed, not the kids, and I believe that is who people were booing. Also, referring to the article on the main page of this website, the difference between Vincent's antics, and West's stalling in the 4th quarter is just that. It was the 4th quarter and they had a double digit lead. Big difference.


Absolutely wrong. How can you say it is any less a strategy than sinking back in a zone.

From the American Heritage Dictionary "A plan of action resulting from strategy or intended to accomplish a specific goal."
[i][/i]
To me it is obvious that the there were two possible goals:
a. get West out of the zone.
b. not to risk turning the ball over against an aggressive zone.

Because the strategy failed doesn't make it any less a strategy.
In capitalism man exploits man, in communism it is just the opposite.
Quote 0 0
hickorycornhusker
vincen should have quit the stall when they saw west was never going to leave that zone. diener should have known randall wasn't going to back down. randall didn't leave the zone on thursday against king so why would he leave the zone against vincent. vincent could have beaten that zone. they pass it around the outside for a while and make west move. west was tired holes in the zone were going to open up. they could have gotten in there and scored to go up by 5 and made west play offense. try and trap them. how they were shooting they probably weren't gonna score. you had a good chance to get the ball back with a 5 point lead and a chance to go up more before halftime.

interestingly a similar senario played out in the 2004 sectional final between fond du lac and oshkosh west. oshkosh west was the better team. fond du lac coached by dick diener got a lead and proceeded to hold the ball. oshkosh west coached by steve randall came out of the zone and tried to trap fond du lac, the defense failed and fond du lac scored extending the lead and kept west out of their zone and pulled off the upset winning the sectional. lance knew that the whole game was hanging on his team's ability to stop vincent from scoring on that posession so he waited until his team was rested and was told exactly what he wanted them to do before he attacked vincent.

was it a bad strategy in general? no. was it the right strategy in the situaution by tom diener? no. he had the better team. if you have the better team you generally want more possessions. and with the team diener had i think that was true. he should have used his team's athleticism and pushed the tempo. west was exhausted having to come from behind in the first two games of the tourney. he let them rest and that's what made the strategy bad.
Quote 0 0
baune13
You can throw out all the definitions you want, but doing NOTHING is not a strategy. If a batter is crowding the plate in baseball, does the pitcher just stand there and not throw it? No, he pitches him inside and backs him off the plate. If a team is in a nickel defense, does the offense just stand there and not snap the ball? No, they call the according play and continue with the game.
Quote 0 0
hickorycornhusker
Quote:
ORIGINAL: DrJ2232

in 2004 the west team was so big that both oshkosh north and fondy decided to try and stall a whole game in order to win. after north lost to us shady was quoted as saying as soon as they got a lead he was going to pull it out, the difference between that year and this year is that we had a more athletic team this year that was succesfully able to come out and trap


i forgot that north was gonna try the same thing against west that year. i still think that vincent was better off attacking the zone, or at least passing the ball around the perimeter not allowing west to get a break and lance get his team ste up exactly how we wanted it. even if vincent doesn't score on that possession west would come down and play offense, Jarmusz was the only weapon west had at that point in the game and benkoske was sitting on the bench. odds were you were gonna stop them and get another chance to score. west was athletic but they were tired and i think vincent should have taken advantage of that than rather than kill the clock and keep west in the game. west proved the past two days that they were capable of a comeback.
Quote 0 0
DrJ2232_old
in 2004 the west team was so big that both oshkosh north and fondy decided to try and stall a whole game in order to win. after north lost to us shady was quoted as saying as soon as they got a lead he was going to pull it out, the difference between that year and this year is that we had a more athletic team this year that was succesfully able to come out and trap
10/7/04
Quote 0 0
jimminn_old
I was there and I booed very loud and I am glad I did. I hope Diener heard me loud and clear. I am glad he got beat because of his coaching tactics.
Quote 0 0
FHS5479_old
Quote:
ORIGINAL: baune13

Quote:
ORIGINAL: cj2488

Quote:
ORIGINAL: baune13

You can throw out all the definitions you want, but doing NOTHING is not a strategy.


yes, yes it is. stalling is a strategy. Vincent's offense revolves around Garrett and Perine penetrating, and they couldn't do that against the Zone, so they pulled out to force West to either come out of the zone, or extend it so far that it would be impossible to pack the lane and prevent Garrett from getting to the lane. this isn't a hard concept to understand.

I also think the "They weren't booing the players, they were booing Diener" is a lame excuse. who's on the court? the players, so you may think you're booing the coach, but booing is directed towards the court, which the players are playing on, not the coach. Even if you are booing Diener, it looks and sounds like you're booing the players, when the players start stalling and you start booing. also, who do you think is more likely to be affected by you're booing, a bunch of 16, 17 and 18 year old kids or a 40+ year old coach with 5 state championships? "I was booing the coach not the players", is a lame excuse in my opinion.



Thanks for the breakdown on how the stall was supposed to work. I had no idea.[]
The bottom line is, IMO, going into a stall for 4 minutes in the second quarter of a 12-9 game is a cheap, bush league move, especially by a big time coach. I have a lot of respect for Diener and what he has done in this state, but maybe instead of stalling, he needs to coach his kids on how to play against a zone instead of just trying to teach them how to avoid it. Put them in a position to overcome what the opposing defense is doing, instead of having his division 1 college players standing there staring at each other until he gets his way. I have been at every state tournament since 1987, and I have never seen anyone get booed like that by the courtside fans, so obviously there were some fairly knowledgeable fans who had some opinions on it.

By the way, I was not one who booed, so leave me out of that. I am just stating my opinion.

If it was a bush-league move, then why was Gosz not bashed more for doing it against West in the first quarter?
Always remember the 25th of December(for more then 1 reason)

Winona St. Softball! 34-11
Winona St. Baseball! 32-14
Quote 0 0
Vande036_old
Quote:
ORIGINAL: nicholas

he has won 5 state titles doing the same thing...

and you can say all you want about the "extremely athletic" king and vincent teams but I think that just sells Oshkosh West short... Gosz and Diener both had the utmost respect for how good Oshkosh West was and I think they both thought that if they can keep it close all game long and had a chance to win it at the end that was their best bet to beat them....

it's not like this is hoosiers and west was hickory... they have two division one seniors (if you count meier, which in my opinion you should), a division two point guard, a possible division 1 junior who is 6'8", and a slew of role players and height they bring off the bench...



I definitley agree---oshkosh west is far from unathletic and if a coach is using "stall" ball he is playing within the rules provided much as people cant fault the private schools for dominating a division which rules place them--is it fun to watch no but i believe in fact coach diener outcoached himself---either way west won and i believe that wouldve happened either way--remember vincent was only up 3 when they started stalling
Quote 0 0
Vande036_old
Quote:
ORIGINAL: Mr_mike527

Nic, you listed teams that were in the mix.

In D2 for example, you named 9 southern schools and 0 northern schools. I wouldn't have minded if you had picked southern schools to win the championships in all divisions, but as for the top 9 teams in the state I think thats pretty biased.

I'm not sure about D1, but as for D2 the northern schools have been good in recent years too. Rice Lake (wayy up north) and Baldwin-Woodville (Slightly less up north) were both in the top ten of the AP rankings last year, with Rice Lake as the number 1. Just one northern team in either division would show you care.

May I suggest Rice Lake, with Dan Culy--All state selection--'s younger brother alex (a sophmore), and Andrew Lochman (a senior), a forward who is an amazing finisher.



the reason why those two teams werent mentioned is they are lucky to make it to sectionals every year--no matter what the rankings are--RANKINGS MEAN NOTHING ASK MONROE!!!!!!!!!
Quote 0 0
DrJ2232_old
Wow couldn't have said that better myself, unfortunately sometimes there is more to the game than just frolicking around and having a fun time, its the freaking state tournament obviously coaches and players are gonna do waht they have to to win, who cares what the fans think if they dont want to see the type of basketball being offered then they can go somewhere else, honestly if youre a coach you want to win the game, you will not care if in the process you made a bunch of drunk spectators mad, basketball is about basketball not about the fans
10/7/04
Quote 0 0
baune13
Quote:
ORIGINAL: FHS5479

Quote:
ORIGINAL: baune13

Quote:
ORIGINAL: cj2488

Quote:
ORIGINAL: baune13

You can throw out all the definitions you want, but doing NOTHING is not a strategy.


yes, yes it is. stalling is a strategy. Vincent's offense revolves around Garrett and Perine penetrating, and they couldn't do that against the Zone, so they pulled out to force West to either come out of the zone, or extend it so far that it would be impossible to pack the lane and prevent Garrett from getting to the lane. this isn't a hard concept to understand.

I also think the "They weren't booing the players, they were booing Diener" is a lame excuse. who's on the court? the players, so you may think you're booing the coach, but booing is directed towards the court, which the players are playing on, not the coach. Even if you are booing Diener, it looks and sounds like you're booing the players, when the players start stalling and you start booing. also, who do you think is more likely to be affected by you're booing, a bunch of 16, 17 and 18 year old kids or a 40+ year old coach with 5 state championships? "I was booing the coach not the players", is a lame excuse in my opinion.



Thanks for the breakdown on how the stall was supposed to work. I had no idea.[]
The bottom line is, IMO, going into a stall for 4 minutes in the second quarter of a 12-9 game is a cheap, bush league move, especially by a big time coach. I have a lot of respect for Diener and what he has done in this state, but maybe instead of stalling, he needs to coach his kids on how to play against a zone instead of just trying to teach them how to avoid it. Put them in a position to overcome what the opposing defense is doing, instead of having his division 1 college players standing there staring at each other until he gets his way. I have been at every state tournament since 1987, and I have never seen anyone get booed like that by the courtside fans, so obviously there were some fairly knowledgeable fans who had some opinions on it.

By the way, I was not one who booed, so leave me out of that. I am just stating my opinion.

If it was a bush-league move, then why was Gosz not bashed more for doing it against West in the first quarter?


1st, did you not notice the place erupt when the charge was called at the end of that stall? 2nd, It was a quarter final game, and fell a little quicker off of the radar with many games still to be played on the weekend.
Quote 0 0
wissportsnet

Boys Basketball Alumni Round-up: February 21st, from @ColtonWilson23 #wisbb -- https://t.co/0K6CZzZWpf https://t.co/715tfpBGVS

wissportsnet

WSN15: Boys Basketball Top Teams #12 -- Two NCAA Division I players at one WIAA Division 4 school = state champions… https://t.co/1MThqzce9L

wissportsnet

Predicting winners of every state wrestling title plus a look By The Numbers, from @Nate_Woelfel -… https://t.co/HgU1bLP7d6

wissportsnet

Join the free Boys Basketball Playoff Pick 'Em Contest; Staff picks coming Tuesday #wisbb -- https://t.co/Y6yTA3OgP8 https://t.co/hA6Uyw9uje