banks93 Show full post »
backwoodsbob
dawgstyle wrote:
Better yet, why don't you cite me a historical example of this being a problem? Show me some examples of where teams get to State without beating anyone and then "ruin" the state tournament for everyone.

You claim this is a problem, show me that it's a problem.


I don't have an issue with non-ranked teams advancing to State, especially if they beat ranked teams along the way. That doesn't "ruin" the tournament that gives everyone hope that a Cinderella team can make it.
Quote 0 0
dawgstyle
Mount Horeb 19-0 Lost Sectional Final to Unranked Greendale
Seymour 19-1 Lost to #5 sectional semi
Wisconsin Lutheran 19-2 State
Rice Lake 17-2 State
West De Pere 17-3 State
Ashwaubenon 18-3 Lost regional final to #5
Whitefish Bay 16-5 Lost to Unranked Pius IX
La Crosse Central 17-3 Lost Sectional Semi #4
Pulaski 17-3 Lost to Unranked Kaukauna
New Berlin Eisenhower 17-3 Lost to Unranked Pewaukee

Last year you would have moved Pulaski out so they didn't have to face Seymour so early. But they lost before they got to Seymour anyway. This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. You want to move teams to prevent the from running into each other but they aren't running into each other anyway. For every example you can give of a team running into a ranked team I can give you one of a team that lost to an unranked team.
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
Quote 0 0
backwoodsbob
dawgstyle wrote:
backwoodsbob wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:
The reason I keep asking for the historical data is pretty simple. IF we are going to take the time to move these teams around and reseed sectionals etc, (which we already know is never going to really happen) but hypothetically, then I want to be sure that these "ranked" teams are actually going to win regardless. Why do all this extra work for these teams to just lose anyway and we still end up with basically the same system.


I totally understand, and might possibly play with the prior history, but feel that if this is to ever go any where we need to come up with a transparent ranking process, or possibly something like you mention with a committee. Although I'm very intrigued by the other websites overall state ranking matrix and for my purposes of the correcting of loaded Regionals, I feel that current A.P. and Coaches Poll would certainly work.

The point you seem to keep missing is when we have a #1 STATE ranked team and a #3 STATE Ranked Team in the same Regional or even the Same Sectional.

I know the above scenario doesn't happen often, which is why I feel it would be super easy to allow for a process to be sure it never happens.


But why does that matter? Those teams lose to unranked teams just as often as they lose to ranked teams?

See the countless examples I have already given.


If it doesn't matter, then why do you care so much if we try and separate two State ranked teams?

If one of either Whitewater or Lakeside Lutheran were placed in either the Beaver Dam or Brookfield Sectional we would most likely have one more top ranked teams still in the tournament. Why would that have been a bad thing?
Quote 0 0
thecrackerjack
Because you are giving preferential treatment to those specific teams.
Fear of the unknown is the greatest fear of all.
- Yvon Chouinard

@miedent 
Quote 0 0
thecrackerjack
satinwood wrote:
thecrackerjack wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:
thecrackerjack wrote:
satinwood wrote:
banks93 wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:
satinwood wrote:
19 pages of this thread. I've gone through a lot of popcorn.


What kind of popcorn? Most everyone would agree that movie theatre or high school sports popcorn is the best. But what kind at home? If its Microwavable I prefer the pop secret home style. ITS SO GOOD!


Movie and extra butter on the microwave. Non of that light butter stuff.


Salty and buttery.


No butter for me, especially at the movie theater... it makes me sick nowadays, but please pass the salt.


Salty > Sweet!


Amen Brother!


I have been known to down one of those huge bags of caramel kettle corn that you can get at Miller Park by about the 4th inning.


Those are delicious as well! I usually get those at any of the "fests" that take place on the Summerfest grounds. Once I start, I just keep shoveling it in my mouth.
Fear of the unknown is the greatest fear of all.
- Yvon Chouinard

@miedent 
Quote 0 0
backwoodsbob
thecrackerjack wrote:
Because you are giving preferential treatment to those specific teams.


So how is that different than the seeding we do now? With some schools getting a first round bye, or a #1 getting to play #8 - no preferential treatment there?
Quote 0 0
backwoodsbob
dawgstyle wrote:
Mount Horeb 19-0 Lost Sectional Final to Unranked Greendale
Seymour 19-1 Lost to #5 sectional semi
Wisconsin Lutheran 19-2 State
Rice Lake 17-2 State
West De Pere 17-3 State
Ashwaubenon 18-3 Lost regional final to #5
Whitefish Bay 16-5 Lost to Unranked Pius IX
La Crosse Central 17-3 Lost Sectional Semi #4
Pulaski 17-3 Lost to Unranked Kaukauna
New Berlin Eisenhower 17-3 Lost to Unranked Pewaukee

Last year you would have moved Pulaski out so they didn't have to face Seymour so early. But they lost before they got to Seymour anyway. This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. You want to move teams to prevent the from running into each other but they aren't running into each other anyway. For every example you can give of a team running into a ranked team I can give you one of a team that lost to an unranked team.


I would need to study last year's bracket and rankings, but even if you are correct - who cares if a NR has a great day and beats a ranked team? I have no problem with that. I just struggle with the #1 and #3 State Ranked Teams playing in one regional when the other Regional or neighboring Sectionals have NO RANKED Teams.
Quote 0 0
backwoodsbob
backwoodsbob wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:
Mount Horeb 19-0 Lost Sectional Final to Unranked Greendale
Seymour 19-1 Lost to #5 sectional semi
Wisconsin Lutheran 19-2 State
Rice Lake 17-2 State
West De Pere 17-3 State
Ashwaubenon 18-3 Lost regional final to #5
Whitefish Bay 16-5 Lost to Unranked Pius IX
La Crosse Central 17-3 Lost Sectional Semi #4
Pulaski 17-3 Lost to Unranked Kaukauna
New Berlin Eisenhower 17-3 Lost to Unranked Pewaukee

Last year you would have moved Pulaski out so they didn't have to face Seymour so early. But they lost before they got to Seymour anyway. This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. You want to move teams to prevent the from running into each other but they aren't running into each other anyway. For every example you can give of a team running into a ranked team I can give you one of a team that lost to an unranked team.


I would need to study last year's bracket and rankings, but even if you are correct - who cares if a NR has a great day and beats a ranked team? I have no problem with that. I just struggle with the #1 and #3 State Ranked Teams playing in one regional when the other Regional or neighboring Sectionals have NO RANKED Teams.


Mathematically, with only 10 ranked teams vs. the balance of a division, and the difference between a #8, #9, #10 and teams just off of the rankings you most likely could find example that back your belief, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider a better way to set up the brackets.
Quote 0 0
dawgstyle
backwoodsbob wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:
backwoodsbob wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:
The reason I keep asking for the historical data is pretty simple. IF we are going to take the time to move these teams around and reseed sectionals etc, (which we already know is never going to really happen) but hypothetically, then I want to be sure that these "ranked" teams are actually going to win regardless. Why do all this extra work for these teams to just lose anyway and we still end up with basically the same system.


I totally understand, and might possibly play with the prior history, but feel that if this is to ever go any where we need to come up with a transparent ranking process, or possibly something like you mention with a committee. Although I'm very intrigued by the other websites overall state ranking matrix and for my purposes of the correcting of loaded Regionals, I feel that current A.P. and Coaches Poll would certainly work.

The point you seem to keep missing is when we have a #1 STATE ranked team and a #3 STATE Ranked Team in the same Regional or even the Same Sectional.

I know the above scenario doesn't happen often, which is why I feel it would be super easy to allow for a process to be sure it never happens.


But why does that matter? Those teams lose to unranked teams just as often as they lose to ranked teams?

See the countless examples I have already given.


If it doesn't matter, then why do you care so much if we try and separate two State ranked teams?

If one of either Whitewater or Lakeside Lutheran were placed in either the Beaver Dam or Brookfield Sectional we would most likely have one more top ranked teams still in the tournament. Why would that have been a bad thing?


Why would it have been a good thing? Why does Lakeside Lutheran deserve preferential treatment over Waupun? Because a ranking system says so? That doesn't hold water as I have shown you COUNTLESS examples of ranked teams losing anyway.
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
Quote 0 0
dawgstyle
backwoodsbob wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:
Mount Horeb 19-0 Lost Sectional Final to Unranked Greendale
Seymour 19-1 Lost to #5 sectional semi
Wisconsin Lutheran 19-2 State
Rice Lake 17-2 State
West De Pere 17-3 State
Ashwaubenon 18-3 Lost regional final to #5
Whitefish Bay 16-5 Lost to Unranked Pius IX
La Crosse Central 17-3 Lost Sectional Semi #4
Pulaski 17-3 Lost to Unranked Kaukauna
New Berlin Eisenhower 17-3 Lost to Unranked Pewaukee

Last year you would have moved Pulaski out so they didn't have to face Seymour so early. But they lost before they got to Seymour anyway. This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. You want to move teams to prevent the from running into each other but they aren't running into each other anyway. For every example you can give of a team running into a ranked team I can give you one of a team that lost to an unranked team.


I would need to study last year's bracket and rankings, but even if you are correct - who cares if a NR has a great day and beats a ranked team? I have no problem with that. I just struggle with the #1 and #3 State Ranked Teams playing in one regional when the other Regional or neighboring Sectionals have NO RANKED Teams.


But what you can't comprehend is that the rankings aren't always right! You are basing your stance on a thought process that the rankings are right. If the rankings are wrong, maybe there are 2 of the top 10 best teams in EVERY sectional and the rankings are WRONG.

What part of that don't you get? This is basic logic. You are operating a theory off a belief system that the rankings are RIGHT when you have no way to back that up.
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
Quote 0 0
dawgstyle
Ok I did it. Last 2 years. 100 ranked teams. 39 lost to unranked teams. The ranking system is approximately 61% correct.

That is the school, the level they reached and an X means they lost to an unranked opponent. If you think 61% is acceptable, go ahead and continue your talk. I have shown you enough reasons why your theory doesn't work. The only thing I will do from here is update the list to include this season.
                       
Brookfield Central                 Sectional Semi        
Milwaukee King                 State        
Germantown                 State        
Neenah                 State        
Stevens Point                 Sectional Semi        
Madison Memorial                 Regional Final         X
Oshkosh North                 Regional Final        
Kettle Moraine                 Regional Final         X
Homestead                 Regional Semi         X
Racine Case                 Sectional Final        
                       
Mount Horeb                 Sectional Final         X
Seymour                 Sectional Semi        
Wisconsin Lutheran                 State        
Rice Lake                 State        
West De Pere                 State        
Ashwaubenon                 Regional Final        
Whitefish Bay                 Regional Final         X
La Crosse Central                 Sectional Semi        
Pulaski                 Regional Semi         X
New Berlin Eisenhower                 Regional Final         X
                       
Roncalli                 State         X
Lodi                 State         X
Elk Mound                 State        
Marshall                 Sectional Final        
Laconia                 Regional Final         X
Edgerton                 Regional Final         X
Gale-Ettrick-Trempealeau                 Regional Final         X
Peshtigo                 Regional Final         X
Poynette                 Regional Final         X
Valders                 Sectional Semi        
                       
Dominican                 State        
Mineral Point                 Sectional Semi         X
Auburndale                 Sectional Final         X
Lourdes Academy                 Sectional Final        
Racine St. Catherine's                 Sectional Semi        
Abbotsford                 Sectional Semi         X
Brookfield Academy                 Regional Final        
Pacelli                 Sectional Semi        
Blair-Taylor                 State        
Kenosha St. Joseph                 Regional Final        
                       
Green Bay NEW Lutheran                 State         X
Cassville                 Sectional Semi         X
Sheboygan Lutheran                 State        
Catholic Central                 Sectional Semi         X
Milwaukee Academy of Science                 Sectional Semi        
Goodman/Pembine                 Regional Semi         X
Wausaukee                 Sectional Semi        
Port Edwards                 Regional Final         X
La Farge                 Regional Semi         X
Randolph                 Regional Quart         X
                       
Germantown                 State        
Milwaukee Hamilton                 Sectional Semi         X
Sussex Hamilton                 Regional Final         X
Milwaukee Vincent                 Sectional Semi        
Milwaukee King                 State         X
De Pere                 Sectional Final        
Sun Prairie                 Regional Final         X
Madison Memorial                 Sectional Final         X
Brookfield Central                 Regional Final        
Oshkosh North                 State        
                       
Onalaska                 State        
Pulaski                 State        
Slinger                 Sectional Semi         X
Seymour                 Sectional Semi        
Milwaukee Washington                 Sectional Semi        
La Crosse Central                 Regional Final        
West De Pere                 Regional Semi         X
Wisconsin Lutheran                 State        
Waunakee                 Regional Final         X
Rice Lake                 Sectional Semi        
                       
Little Chute                 State        
East Troy                 State        
Wisconsin Dells                 Sectional Final        
Aquinas                 State        
Marshall                 Sectional Semi        
Brillion                 Sectional Final        
Lodi                 State        
Durand                 Regional Final         X
Brown Deer                 Sectional Semi        
Oostburg                 Sectional Semi         X
                       
Cuba City                 State        
Dominican                 State        
Laconia                 Sectional Fina        
Elk Mound                 Regional Final         X
Auburndale                 State        
Brookfield Academy                 Regional Final        
Augusta                 Regional Final         X
Saint Mary's Springs                 Sectional Semi        
Luther                 Sectional Final        
Southwestern                 Sectional Semi        
                       
Randolph                 State        
Green Bay NEW Lutheran                 State        
Clayton                 Sectional Final        
Black Hawk                 Sectional Semi        
Suring                 Regional Final         X
Drummond                 State        
Luck                 Sectional Semi        
Royall                 Sectional Final         X
Potosi                 Regional Final        
Cassville                 Sectional Semi        


@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
Quote 0 0
backwoodsbob
dawgstyle wrote:
Ok I did it. Last 2 years. 100 ranked teams. 39 lost to unranked teams. The ranking system is approximately 61% correct.

That is the school, the level they reached and an X means they lost to an unranked opponent. If you think 61% is acceptable, go ahead and continue your talk. I have shown you enough reasons why your theory doesn't work. The only thing I will do from here is update the list to include this season.
                       
Brookfield Central                 Sectional Semi        
Milwaukee King                 State        
Germantown                 State        
Neenah                 State        
Stevens Point                 Sectional Semi        
Madison Memorial                 Regional Final         X
Oshkosh North                 Regional Final        
Kettle Moraine                 Regional Final         X
Homestead                 Regional Semi         X
Racine Case                 Sectional Final        
                       
Mount Horeb                 Sectional Final         X
Seymour                 Sectional Semi        
Wisconsin Lutheran                 State        
Rice Lake                 State        
West De Pere                 State        
Ashwaubenon                 Regional Final        
Whitefish Bay                 Regional Final         X
La Crosse Central                 Sectional Semi        
Pulaski                 Regional Semi         X
New Berlin Eisenhower                 Regional Final         X
                       
Roncalli                 State         X
Lodi                 State         X
Elk Mound                 State        
Marshall                 Sectional Final        
Laconia                 Regional Final         X
Edgerton                 Regional Final         X
Gale-Ettrick-Trempealeau                 Regional Final         X
Peshtigo                 Regional Final         X
Poynette                 Regional Final         X
Valders                 Sectional Semi        
                       
Dominican                 State        
Mineral Point                 Sectional Semi         X
Auburndale                 Sectional Final         X
Lourdes Academy                 Sectional Final        
Racine St. Catherine's                 Sectional Semi        
Abbotsford                 Sectional Semi         X
Brookfield Academy                 Regional Final        
Pacelli                 Sectional Semi        
Blair-Taylor                 State        
Kenosha St. Joseph                 Regional Final        
                       
Green Bay NEW Lutheran                 State         X
Cassville                 Sectional Semi         X
Sheboygan Lutheran                 State        
Catholic Central                 Sectional Semi         X
Milwaukee Academy of Science                 Sectional Semi        
Goodman/Pembine                 Regional Semi         X
Wausaukee                 Sectional Semi        
Port Edwards                 Regional Final         X
La Farge                 Regional Semi         X
Randolph                 Regional Quart         X
                       
Germantown                 State        
Milwaukee Hamilton                 Sectional Semi         X
Sussex Hamilton                 Regional Final         X
Milwaukee Vincent                 Sectional Semi        
Milwaukee King                 State         X
De Pere                 Sectional Final        
Sun Prairie                 Regional Final         X
Madison Memorial                 Sectional Final         X
Brookfield Central                 Regional Final        
Oshkosh North                 State        
                       
Onalaska                 State        
Pulaski                 State        
Slinger                 Sectional Semi         X
Seymour                 Sectional Semi        
Milwaukee Washington                 Sectional Semi        
La Crosse Central                 Regional Final        
West De Pere                 Regional Semi         X
Wisconsin Lutheran                 State        
Waunakee                 Regional Final         X
Rice Lake                 Sectional Semi        
                       
Little Chute                 State        
East Troy                 State        
Wisconsin Dells                 Sectional Final        
Aquinas                 State        
Marshall                 Sectional Semi        
Brillion                 Sectional Final        
Lodi                 State        
Durand                 Regional Final         X
Brown Deer                 Sectional Semi        
Oostburg                 Sectional Semi         X
                       
Cuba City                 State        
Dominican                 State        
Laconia                 Sectional Fina        
Elk Mound                 Regional Final         X
Auburndale                 State        
Brookfield Academy                 Regional Final        
Augusta                 Regional Final         X
Saint Mary's Springs                 Sectional Semi        
Luther                 Sectional Final        
Southwestern                 Sectional Semi        
                       
Randolph                 State        
Green Bay NEW Lutheran                 State        
Clayton                 Sectional Final        
Black Hawk                 Sectional Semi        
Suring                 Regional Final         X
Drummond                 State        
Luck                 Sectional Semi        
Royall                 Sectional Final         X
Potosi                 Regional Final        
Cassville                 Sectional Semi        




Great research, but as I have mentioned before and I don't know if we can ever devise the correct answer - how and when do you decide if there is an upset, or if the ranked team was mistakenly ranked, or if the ranked team just had an off game?

My thought of not having teams tied at a #1 State Ranking, or the #1 and #3 State Ranked team play each other in Regionals really needs no research. If that is acceptable, than why even seed to begin with? It seems like a simple enough concept.
Quote 0 0
banks93
dawgstyle wrote:
Ok I did it. Last 2 years. 100 ranked teams. 39 lost to unranked teams. The ranking system is approximately 61% correct.

That is the school, the level they reached and an X means they lost to an unranked opponent. If you think 61% is acceptable, go ahead and continue your talk. I have shown you enough reasons why your theory doesn't work. The only thing I will do from here is update the list to include this season.
                       
Brookfield Central                 Sectional Semi        
Milwaukee King                 State        
Germantown                 State        
Neenah                 State        
Stevens Point                 Sectional Semi        
Madison Memorial                 Regional Final         X
Oshkosh North                 Regional Final        
Kettle Moraine                 Regional Final         X
Homestead                 Regional Semi         X
Racine Case                 Sectional Final        
                       
Mount Horeb                 Sectional Final         X
Seymour                 Sectional Semi        
Wisconsin Lutheran                 State        
Rice Lake                 State        
West De Pere                 State        
Ashwaubenon                 Regional Final        
Whitefish Bay                 Regional Final         X
La Crosse Central                 Sectional Semi        
Pulaski                 Regional Semi         X
New Berlin Eisenhower                 Regional Final         X
                       
Roncalli                 State         X
Lodi                 State         X
Elk Mound                 State        
Marshall                 Sectional Final        
Laconia                 Regional Final         X
Edgerton                 Regional Final         X
Gale-Ettrick-Trempealeau                 Regional Final         X
Peshtigo                 Regional Final         X
Poynette                 Regional Final         X
Valders                 Sectional Semi        
                       
Dominican                 State        
Mineral Point                 Sectional Semi         X
Auburndale                 Sectional Final         X
Lourdes Academy                 Sectional Final        
Racine St. Catherine's                 Sectional Semi        
Abbotsford                 Sectional Semi         X
Brookfield Academy                 Regional Final        
Pacelli                 Sectional Semi        
Blair-Taylor                 State        
Kenosha St. Joseph                 Regional Final        
                       
Green Bay NEW Lutheran                 State         X
Cassville                 Sectional Semi         X
Sheboygan Lutheran                 State        
Catholic Central                 Sectional Semi         X
Milwaukee Academy of Science                 Sectional Semi        
Goodman/Pembine                 Regional Semi         X
Wausaukee                 Sectional Semi        
Port Edwards                 Regional Final         X
La Farge                 Regional Semi         X
Randolph                 Regional Quart         X
                       
Germantown                 State        
Milwaukee Hamilton                 Sectional Semi         X
Sussex Hamilton                 Regional Final         X
Milwaukee Vincent                 Sectional Semi        
Milwaukee King                 State         X
De Pere                 Sectional Final        
Sun Prairie                 Regional Final         X
Madison Memorial                 Sectional Final         X
Brookfield Central                 Regional Final        
Oshkosh North                 State        
                       
Onalaska                 State        
Pulaski                 State        
Slinger                 Sectional Semi         X
Seymour                 Sectional Semi        
Milwaukee Washington                 Sectional Semi        
La Crosse Central                 Regional Final        
West De Pere                 Regional Semi         X
Wisconsin Lutheran                 State        
Waunakee                 Regional Final         X
Rice Lake                 Sectional Semi        
                       
Little Chute                 State        
East Troy                 State        
Wisconsin Dells                 Sectional Final        
Aquinas                 State        
Marshall                 Sectional Semi        
Brillion                 Sectional Final        
Lodi                 State        
Durand                 Regional Final         X
Brown Deer                 Sectional Semi        
Oostburg                 Sectional Semi         X
                       
Cuba City                 State        
Dominican                 State        
Laconia                 Sectional Fina        
Elk Mound                 Regional Final         X
Auburndale                 State        
Brookfield Academy                 Regional Final        
Augusta                 Regional Final         X
Saint Mary's Springs                 Sectional Semi        
Luther                 Sectional Final        
Southwestern                 Sectional Semi        
                       
Randolph                 State        
Green Bay NEW Lutheran                 State        
Clayton                 Sectional Final        
Black Hawk                 Sectional Semi        
Suring                 Regional Final         X
Drummond                 State        
Luck                 Sectional Semi        
Royall                 Sectional Final         X
Potosi                 Regional Final        
Cassville                 Sectional Semi        




Just because you lose one game in the playoffs does not take away from what a team accomplished during the season. Anyone can win or lose one game. Your conclusion is wrong.

You want to drop UW and Virginia out of the top 25 because they lost one game to Maryland and Louisville?

I think someone pointed out that 22 higher ranked teams lost this Saturday at home in regionals. Upsets happen all the time in a basketball playoff one game scenario. It is what makes it a great spectator sport. We are just trying to avoid top teams playing in Regionals. Nobody is saying they are unbeatable.

West De Pere would not be playing Kaukauna for a regional final. Freedom would not be playing Xavier. KML would not be playing Brown Deer. We are talking about moving a small amount of teams. You make it sound like we are moving 100's of teams. There would maybe be 15-20 teams every year in all the divisions moved. 3 of these teams could of been moved to the other side of the sectional bracket with minimal impact on travel and then all three of those games would of been played at sectionals in my opinion.

You see less of it in D1 because the sectional is seeded instead of half sectional.

You can draw whatever conclusion you want but every year is going to have upsets. It always happens. We are just trying to spread the top teams out and give different match ups in some loaded regionals.
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