blade12
Saw this from Travis over the weekend. 

Travis Wilson Retweeted Travis Wilson

RE: player participation numbers -- Blew my mind when talking with an FRCC coach yesterday that only two of the ten teams had three levels of girls basketball this year and could be none next year. FVA is much the same.


Not sure why he's surprised, it has been a trend for more than a few years and it is not limited to smaller schools. The FRCC is a D1/D2 conference with enrollments ranging from about 750 (GBND) to 2000+ (Preble).





Travis Wilson R

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cdshredder
Definitely a problem at Sheboygan South.  Finished the season with only 15 girls in the entire program. 2-Seniors, 2-Juniors, 5-Sophomores, 6-Freshman. Junior/Senior participation is almost non-existent. Two seniors and 1 junior quit before the 8th game of the season and a few others never tried out.  There were 2 sophomores and 1 freshman in the starting line up with little varsity experience and the bench was sophomores and freshman.  They had to split time playing JV and varsity just to have a team.  With an enrollment just over a thousand kids that's not good. Obviously having a more successful team might help with participation numbers.  Girls dance and especially club dance is very popular and demands a lot of time.  Club volleyball takes a few.  South loses some girls to open enrollment.  Some will go to Oostburg, North, Lutheran or Falls to play on a more competitive team.  Would be interesting to know how schools with much smaller enrollments are putting together teams.  Or do smaller schools not have this issue? 
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gstacy
BRF with enrollment around 500 had 10 girls out for high school ball and finished with 9. I saw the numbers are due to kids do not like the current coach. At least that is what several people have said. 6-7 didn't return from last years team and the year before, a few other girls decided against playing. Unfortunately, there were several girls this year who are seriously considering not returning.
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bne55
We only had one school in the Bay this year (Xavier) That was able to put out 3 teams. 
@brent_erdmann 
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blade12
bne55 wrote:
We only had one school in the Bay this year (Xavier) That was able to put out 3 teams. 

And they are the smallest school in the Bay. I believe they only have like 2 7th grade girls playing in their youth program so their day is coming although if it is only 1 low numbers class they may be able to survive that.
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sabor67
I believe Poynette was the only team in the Capitol North that could field all 3 levels this season & I don't think anyone in the Capitol South could, including Marshall who won D3.  If you were at the Girls State Tourney, there was a lot of Soph/Frosh dominated rosters there.  I think this is due in part to 2 reasons, low numbers in Jr/Sr classes at most schools & a lot of younger girls who both play more ball all year long & are more talented. Leading to a large number of the playing or starting on varsity rosters.  Which certainly can lead to older girls deciding not to play.  My fear is that this will become a trend of coaches thinking the younger players are better when they come in & playing them over the older girls year after year. Perpetuating a cycle that is not good for HSGBB.  I was shocked by the number of turnovers at state this season & saw a lot of teams that just don't value the ball very much. Just play fast & try to outscore the other team.  I think we are starting to see a huge AAU impact on HSGBB that is having an adverse effect on the game, on offense with the "shoot farther out" mentality & some really poor defense. Again, "Let's outscore the other team" mentality.
It's not how you play the game / It's not whether you win or lose / It's how you play the game that determines whether you win or lose!!
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blade12
sabor67 wrote:
I believe Poynette was the only team in the Capitol North that could field all 3 levels this season & I don't think anyone in the Capitol South could, including Marshall who won D3.  If you were at the Girls State Tourney, there was a lot of Soph/Frosh dominated rosters there.  I think this is due in part to 2 reasons, low numbers in Jr/Sr classes at most schools & a lot of younger girls who both play more ball all year long & are more talented. Leading to a large number of the playing or starting on varsity rosters.  Which certainly can lead to older girls deciding not to play.  My fear is that this will become a trend of coaches thinking the younger players are better when they come in & playing them over the older girls year after year. Perpetuating a cycle that is not good for HSGBB.  I was shocked by the number of turnovers at state this season & saw a lot of teams that just don't value the ball very much. Just play fast & try to outscore the other team.  I think we are starting to see a huge AAU impact on HSGBB that is having an adverse effect on the game, on offense with the "shoot farther out" mentality & some really poor defense. Again, "Let's outscore the other team" mentality.



IMHO

The cycle is the better teams attract the better players and the weaker teams lose them. The better players gravitate toward the better programs and keep it strong, the other schools lose their better players and they weaker. The better players play with or against each other in AAU, they form friendships and often they end up at the same HS.

Did you see the girls 3pt shooting % at State?  There were 3 or 4 games where teams were in the single digits!!  And yes the TO's were ridiculously high. Anyone who wants a SC is not thinking about the impact it will have on the quality of girls HS bball only for boys that can out athlete the other team. 

Anyone notice how many layups Arike misses when she plays fast?  It's not a small number. How many girls in HS are comparable to Arike? Very few. And the number of girls that will struggle with that faster, "shoot from deeper" style is going to be immense and drive them away form the game.
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sabor67
blade12 wrote:
IMHO

The cycle is the better teams attract the better players and the weaker teams lose them. The better players gravitate toward the better programs and keep it strong, the other schools lose their better players and they weaker. The better players play with or against each other in AAU, they form friendships and often they end up at the same HS.

Did you see the girls 3pt shooting % at State?  There were 3 or 4 games where teams were in the single digits!!  And yes the TO's were ridiculously high. Anyone who wants a SC is not thinking about the impact it will have on the quality of girls HS bball only for boys that can out athlete the other team. 

Anyone notice how many layups Arike misses when she plays fast?  It's not a small number. How many girls in HS are comparable to Arike? Very few. And the number of girls that will struggle with that faster, "shoot from deeper" style is going to be immense and drive them away form the game.


The other big thing I see AAU influencing in GBB is the 5 out pass & cut offense.  I only saw a 2-3 of the 20 teams at state consistantly run some form of a base offense with girls in the low/high post vs MTM defenses.  You are seeing more girls that are over 5'10" that don't even think about posting up & in some cases can't score from the post, no skills. It has become a perimeter game for most teams & players.  The tall girl from Bangor could certainly post up, but spent a lot of time on the perimeter.  I accept that changes will happen to the game, but I still miss watching a dominate post player down in the block working hard, consistantly.  I do think it helps your team if your "bigs" can step outside & at least dribble & pass, maybe even shoot, but the art of the postup is being lost.  Even in the college game, with a shot clock, you still see teams posting up & trying to feed the post, in a conventional way. I really enjoy that.

I also think, that this up tempo, pass & cut offense is fairly new to GBB & given some time & years to work on it, you will see good HS coaches start to figure out the best way to stop it. Obviously to stop it, you will need to have the right kind of players.  I look at some off these changes as similar to the run & shoot & spread option FB offenses in the NFL, it took a few years for them to figure out how to defend them, but once they did, they became more of a gimick or situational offense, not a full time offense. I think this will happen with all the spread out bball offenses too.

Change is good for GBB in the long run. Any way to make the game more interesting to watch will help it grow & hopefully get more girls invovled in it.  You have been able to see new teams every year move up & be able to contend to get to sectionals or state & others that were at the top move down to more avg, espescially at the small to medium schools were your fortunes can change with the make up & skills of the girls that show up that year.  I always cheer for teams that are new to the state tourney, it is good for the sport to see a team rise up & get to that level & I think it is never good to see 1 or 2 teams win it every year, at any division.  Some of these positives are certainly due to an increase of AAU or summer bball being available to more & more girls each year & of course, girls just playing more bball.

Now all we need is a shot clock!!

It's not how you play the game / It's not whether you win or lose / It's how you play the game that determines whether you win or lose!!
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blade12
sabor67 wrote:


The other big thing I see AAU influencing in GBB is the 5 out pass & cut offense.  I only saw a 2-3 of the 20 teams at state consistantly run some form of a base offense with girls in the low/high post vs MTM defenses.  You are seeing more girls that are over 5'10" that don't even think about posting up & in some cases can't score from the post, no skills. It has become a perimeter game for most teams & players.  The tall girl from Bangor could certainly post up, but spent a lot of time on the perimeter.  I accept that changes will happen to the game, but I still miss watching a dominate post player down in the block working hard, consistantly.  I do think it helps your team if your "bigs" can step outside & at least dribble & pass, maybe even shoot, but the art of the postup is being lost.  Even in the college game, with a shot clock, you still see teams posting up & trying to feed the post, in a conventional way. I really enjoy that.

I also think, that this up tempo, pass & cut offense is fairly new to GBB & given some time & years to work on it, you will see good HS coaches start to figure out the best way to stop it. Obviously to stop it, you will need to have the right kind of players.  I look at some off these changes as similar to the run & shoot & spread option FB offenses in the NFL, it took a few years for them to figure out how to defend them, but once they did, they became more of a gimick or situational offense, not a full time offense. I think this will happen with all the spread out bball offenses too.

Change is good for GBB in the long run. Any way to make the game more interesting to watch will help it grow & hopefully get more girls invovled in it.  You have been able to see new teams every year move up & be able to contend to get to sectionals or state & others that were at the top move down to more avg, espescially at the small to medium schools were your fortunes can change with the make up & skills of the girls that show up that year.  I always cheer for teams that are new to the state tourney, it is good for the sport to see a team rise up & get to that level & I think it is never good to see 1 or 2 teams win it every year, at any division.  Some of these positives are certainly due to an increase of AAU or summer bball being available to more & more girls each year & of course, girls just playing more bball.

Now all we need is a shot clock!!



They will sit in a zone or a sagging Pack Line defense waiting for the SC to expire or forcing only select girls (read: 1 of 5 on the floor) to shoot from outside where she will shoot something like 5-25% from the field while the other 4 girls that aren't allowed to shoot from outside decide the game is not for them because they do not possess the athleticism to play fast and create their own shots and they are not involved. IMHO.
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sabor67

blade12 wrote:


They will sit in a zone or a sagging Pack Line defense waiting for the SC to expire or forcing only select girls (read: 1 of 5 on the floor) to shoot from outside where she will shoot something like 5-25% from the field while the other 4 girls that aren't allowed to shoot from outside decide the game is not for them because they do not possess the athleticism to play fast and create their own shots and they are not involved. IMHO.

Good teams will still attack the basket just like they do now. Bad teams will continue to struggle if a shot clock is added.  In other words, the cream will continue to rise to the top.  The only reason we don't have one is cost, nothing to do with how it will change the game or coaching. When my daughter got to college to play & there is a shot clock, it took some time to get used to it. The girls from other states that have it, had no issue with it. Nothing I hate worse than the 4 corners offense to run out the clock. What it will do is make coaches teach kids how to attack a defense & either shoot or pass out or to a player cutting.  You will see a change in offenses to adapt to the shot clock. One of the big complaints I hear from people about HSGBB is the slow pace of some games. They say it is hard to watch.  I would agree with that when you have a team that wants to run 2-4 min off the clock on every offensive possesion.  Most of the good teams do not play "slow down" ball, they attack both from the inside & by shooting outside. You can play an uptempo game & still have both an inside & outside game.  The teams that don't have or don't coach girls to attack the defense will certainly struggle, but that is the fault of their HS coaches & in some or most cases the quality or lack of a good youth program & youth coaches. Too many youth coaches are consumed by winning. They do not get that they are a "farm" team coach whose job it is to get the kids ready for HS.  The good HS programs have good youth programs & they will continue to do what they do & be at the top, with or without a shot clock. I personally would prefer to see it. I coach a MS girls team now & we already play like there is a shot clock, get up court, attack the defense, get the best shot (inside or out).   I love the pace.

It's not how you play the game / It's not whether you win or lose / It's how you play the game that determines whether you win or lose!!
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blade12
sabor67 wrote:

sabor67 wrote:

Good teams will still attack the basket just like they do now. Bad teams will continue to struggle if a shot clock is added.  In other words, the cream will continue to rise to the top.  The only reason we don't have one is cost, nothing to do with how it will change the game or coaching. When my daughter got to college to play & there is a shot clock, it took some time to get used to it. The girls from other states that have it, had no issue with it. Nothing I hate worse than the 4 corners offense to run out the clock. What it will do is make coaches teach kids how to attack a defense & either shoot or pass out or to a player cutting.  You will see a change in offenses to adapt to the shot clock. One of the big complaints I hear from people about HSGBB is the slow pace of some games. They say it is hard to watch.  I would agree with that when you have a team that wants to run 2-4 min off the clock on every offensive possesion.  Most of the good teams do not play "slow down" ball, they attack both from the inside & by shooting outside. You can play an uptempo game & still have both an inside & outside game.  The teams that don't have or don't coach girls to attack the defense will certainly struggle, but that is the fault of their HS coaches & in some or most cases the quality or lack of a good youth program & youth coaches. Too many youth coaches are consumed by winning. They do not get that they are a "farm" team coach whose job it is to get the kids ready for HS.  The good HS programs have good youth programs & they will continue to do what they do & be at the top, with or without a shot clock. I personally would prefer to see it. I coach a MS girls team now & we already play like there is a shot clock, get up court, attack the defense, get the best shot (inside or out).   I love the pace.


Acknowledging that there is a totally different thread for SC discussion;

Quote:
The only reason we don't have one is cost, nothing to do with how it will change the game or coaching.[?quote]   No. The reason we do not have one now is that the pro SC movement cannot provide one reasonable fact for what about the current game is so bad that we need a SC. Is cost a factor, sure but not the only one. Once installed a SC is not more costly for a school to run for JV and JV2 games but the original proposal did not include it for JV or JV2 games, please explain why not?

One of the big complaints I hear from people about HSGBB is the slow pace of some games. They say it is hard to watch.
You want hard to watch? Watch what happens when the best players gravitate toward the "have" schools leaving the weaker players at the "have not" schools. The "have nots" will be not only unwatchable they will struggle to field teams. Also watching girls play faster with more zones, more TO's (did you see the number of TO's from the best teams in the state at State?) and more outside shooting and shooting 15% and the tallest girl on the floor standing under the hoop doing nothing but waiting for a rebound to come her way will make the game not only unwatchable, but will also lead to girls leaving the game.

Quote:
I would agree with that when you have a team that wants to run 2-4 min off the clock on every offensive possesion.
Who does that? Seriously, name one girls team that does that and then please provide the total % of game minutes played in the entire state of WI that involve a stall for 2-4 minutes. Thanks in advance. 

Quote:
but that is the fault of their HS coaches & in some or most cases the quality or lack of a good youth program & youth coaches.
That's out of touch and offensive to many schools who do the very best they can with the coaching and talent resources available to them. Not all school get to pick and choose who fills out a roster. Not all schools get +OE enrollment, not all schools get 6-8+ kids on AAU teams in their school. Not all schools get a former UWGB player to run the program. Please see the OP in that many large schools can't even field 3 levels of girls teams. You get what you get and you make the best possible experience of it for the players involved, not for the fans. 

Quote:
The good HS programs have good youth programs & they will continue to do what they do & be at the top, with or without a shot clock.
No SC needed, noted.

Quote:
I coach a MS girls team now & we already play like there is a shot clock, get up court, attack the defense, get the best shot (inside or out).
Again, no SC needed. Also noted.
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blade12
This is disappointing.  Stockbridge is a very small school but what happens to any girls that want to play, can they go to another nearby school and be granted eligibility? 

Awaiting official confirmation, but it appears Stockbridge is cancelling it's Varsity girls basketball season

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db11
blade12 wrote:
This is disappointing.  Stockbridge is a very small school but what happens to any girls that want to play, can they go to another nearby school and be granted eligibility? 

Awaiting official confirmation, but it appears Stockbridge is cancelling it's Varsity girls basketball season



He only said varsity, so I'll venture a guess they'll play a JV schedule.
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blade12
db11 wrote:


He only said varsity, so I'll venture a guess they'll play a JV schedule.

There were a few Tweets in the thread.

So, would they still have a JV/JV 2 season, or the whole program folding?


Whole program I believe. Received word from a source that the 2 girls coaches handed in resignations


Replying to  

Is this based on numbers or other aspects?


Numbers

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db11
blade12 wrote:

There were a few Tweets in the thread.

So, would they still have a JV/JV 2 season, or the whole program folding?


Whole program I believe. Received word from a source that the 2 girls coaches handed in resignations


Replying to  

Is this based on numbers or other aspects?


Numbers



Hmm...perhaps they get absorbed by Hilbert's JV then? I seem to recall when Williams Bay cancelled their football season late a few years ago, some kids played on Delavan-Darien's JV team (varsity comp not allowed).
https://twitter.com/barwickipedia - Follow me. Because we all need a bit of sports snark in our lives.

"Doin' right ain't got no end."
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