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justjon007
pistolpetefan23 wrote:


Give-away games like this are the ones that absolutely kill you when you're going to be in a pennant/wild card race at the end of the year.


Abolutely. Longball, this was the Brewers game and they gave it away. Great to take two of three but they should have swept. Manny must go and quickly.
Knowledge is good.
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cory_old
Parra is probably not going to leave the rotation anytime soon (he's young and has potential, the brewers aren't getting off of that horse anytime soon) and Kendall wasn't going to get pinch hit for, they should have bunted, that absolutely should have happened, but they weren't going to pinch hit for him. is frankie coming in cold a better hitter than kendall? have kendall bunt and save frankie for another situation.

Parra would have to have a chin meng wang type of meltdown for the brewers to move him out of the rotation. the kid has the stuff to pitch, he's just gotta get his head out of his arse.
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justjon007
cory wrote:


Parra is probably not going to leave the rotation anytime soon (he's young and has potential, the brewers aren't getting off of that horse anytime soon) and Kendall wasn't going to get pinch hit for, they should have bunted, that absolutely should have happened, but they weren't going to pinch hit for him. is frankie coming in cold a better hitter than kendall? have kendall bunt and save frankie for another situation.

Parra would have to have a chin meng wang type of meltdown for the brewers to move him out of the rotation. the kid has the stuff to pitch, he's just gotta get his head out of his arse.

No arguement on the first part but the second, unfortunately, I don't think is ever going to happen.
Knowledge is good.
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travis12
cory wrote:


Parra is probably not going to leave the rotation anytime soon (he's young and has potential, the brewers aren't getting off of that horse anytime soon) and Kendall wasn't going to get pinch hit for, they should have bunted, that absolutely should have happened, but they weren't going to pinch hit for him. is frankie coming in cold a better hitter than kendall? have kendall bunt and save frankie for another situation.

Parra would have to have a chin meng wang type of meltdown for the brewers to move him out of the rotation. the kid has the stuff to pitch, he's just gotta get his head out of his arse.


It doesn't matter who it is or how much potential they have, you can't keep trotting a guy out there with a 6.86 ERA and 1.83 WHIP when he's had 1/3 of the season to establish what he can do.
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cory_old
justjon007 wrote:


No arguement on the first part but the second, unfortunately, I don't think is ever going to happen.


you gotta be patient my friend, you never know. manny is a young guy and has the stuff to make it, so you never know when it could click. look at a guy like Randy Johnson (now obviously, in perspective, manny is no randy, randy is a freak, but i'm just saying they're both talented pitchers), Johnson didn't get control of his stuff until he was nearly 30, now because randy is 7 feet tall and throws a 100 mph with a nasty slider, being wild and pitching poorly is only going to cost johnson 3 or 4 runs where it costs manny 7 or 8. I'm just saying Manny could one day figure it out and be a solid #2 or #3 on any team in the majors for his career. the brewers aren't a team in a position to give up on guys (i know the counter is that the brewers also aren't a team that can waste time waiting on a guy because the crew doesn't have the money to create constant pennant opportunities)
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cory_old
pistolpetefan23 wrote:


It doesn't matter who it is or how much potential they have, you can't keep trotting a guy out there with a 6.86 ERA and 1.83 WHIP when he's had 1/3 of the season to establish what he can do.


alright, well then what's plan B? who ya gonna trot out there every 5th day? anyone in triple A ready to come in and be a starting pitcher on a team currently in first place? who can the crew trade (that isn't going to hurt the brewers productivity) to get back a starter to replace that spot? the red sox need infielders, maybe you can throw escobar at them and some pieces for a guy like clay bucholz (idk, just digressing here). But what is there, really? If you want to replace parra, fine, just so long as you already have the back up in place, because otherwise i feel like people are just looking at him (and yes, he's pitching like crap) and saying "he stinks, get him out of there" without having a replacement.
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db11
Bad loss, no doubt. You hope this doesn't turn into a "look back" game as a turning point. That said, living in the here and now, they're still the first-place Brewers and they just won a series in Atlanta after a horrid four-gamer in Florida.

Parra cannot be on the mound for his next scheduled start. At the very least they need to find a way to skip him. As far as replacing him goes, it might be tough. Dillard is the current best option at AAA, but he just got rocked the other day...Maybe this Burns guy could be given a shot? Thinking long-term, I think Manny gets one more shot provided they actually do something about him. Maybe they can find an "injury," put him on the DL, and then get him a couple rehab starts down in AAA. Hopefully, he can straighten himself out, but he's no longer that "young" of an arm. Not young enough to be overly patient with anymore.

Positives from this one: the offense overcame a couple of deficits and had the team in position to win in the eighth inning, and they actually got to a pitcher in his MLB debut as opposed to getting shut down.
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pinetar
pistolpetefan23 wrote:


cory wrote:


Parra is probably not going to leave the rotation anytime soon (he's young and has potential, the brewers aren't getting off of that horse anytime soon) and Kendall wasn't going to get pinch hit for, they should have bunted, that absolutely should have happened, but they weren't going to pinch hit for him. is frankie coming in cold a better hitter than kendall? have kendall bunt and save frankie for another situation.

Parra would have to have a chin meng wang type of meltdown for the brewers to move him out of the rotation. the kid has the stuff to pitch, he's just gotta get his head out of his arse.


It doesn't matter who it is or how much potential they have, you can't keep trotting a guy out there with a 6.86 ERA and 1.83 WHIP when he's had 1/3 of the season to establish what he can do.


not saying I completely disagree with your assessment seeing as how a 6.86 ERA is pretty crappy...but lets not forget some great pitchers struggled early in their careers...I personally just feel that Parra is trying to do too much or being the pitcher he doesn't have to be...he was hearing and reading all of the same things we were about how he and gallardo had to fill in for sheets and sabathia and if they don't play good the team may suffer...I think he just needs to take the pressure off of himself...

for a reference on how you have to stick with young guys...Zach Greinke had a 5.80 ERA and a 5-17 record in his second full season...Roy Halladay had a 10.64 ERA and was 4-7 in his 3rd season...Wandy Rodriguez had a 5.53 and 5.64 ERA in his first two seasons...some guys just have off years or they have troubles early in their career harnessing their abilities...Josh Beckett has had an ERA over 5 in 06...some of the games best have struggled before as well...Greg Maddux had ERA's over 5 in his first two seasons...you get the point I think I'm trying to make...don't give up on potential too early...these guys will figure it out given time
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travis12
DB1985 wrote:


Bad loss, no doubt. You hope this doesn't turn into a "look back" game as a turning point. That said, living in the here and now, they're still the first-place Brewers and they just won a series in Atlanta after a horrid four-gamer in Florida.

Parra cannot be on the mound for his next scheduled start. At the very least they need to find a way to skip him. As far as replacing him goes, it might be tough. Dillard is the current best option at AAA, but he just got rocked the other day...Maybe this Burns guy could be given a shot? Thinking long-term, I think Manny gets one more shot provided they actually do something about him. Maybe they can find an "injury," put him on the DL, and then get him a couple rehab starts down in AAA. Hopefully, he can straighten himself out, but he's no longer that "young" of an arm. Not young enough to be overly patient with anymore.

Positives from this one: the offense overcame a couple of deficits and had the team in position to win in the eighth inning, and they actually got to a pitcher in his MLB debut as opposed to getting shut down.


I actually thought about that too. However, I'm pretty sure I heard that Parra does have one more minor league option left, so we could potentially send him down without him having to clear waivers.
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pinetar
cory wrote:


pistolpetefan23 wrote:


It doesn't matter who it is or how much potential they have, you can't keep trotting a guy out there with a 6.86 ERA and 1.83 WHIP when he's had 1/3 of the season to establish what he can do.


alright, well then what's plan B? who ya gonna trot out there every 5th day? anyone in triple A ready to come in and be a starting pitcher on a team currently in first place? who can the crew trade (that isn't going to hurt the brewers productivity) to get back a starter to replace that spot? the red sox need infielders, maybe you can throw escobar at them and some pieces for a guy like clay bucholz (idk, just digressing here). But what is there, really? If you want to replace parra, fine, just so long as you already have the back up in place, because otherwise i feel like people are just looking at him (and yes, he's pitching like crap) and saying "he stinks, get him out of there" without having a replacement.


Hart and a prospect for Bucholz? I heard that rumor somewhere...and thats obviously all it is...but that would make me happy for sure...it obviously wouldn't help their infield...but if for some reason this is remotely a true rumor...DO IT
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cory_old
T_Unit14 wrote:


Hart and a prospect for Bucholz? I heard that rumor somewhere...and thats obviously all it is...but that would make me happy for sure...it obviously wouldn't help their infield...but if for some reason this is remotely a true rumor...DO IT


i'd do that in a hartbeat. that's the problem, the brewers definitely make that deal but i don't see it from boston's end. Bucholz isn't pitching great but has shown brilliance, Hart is a .250 hitter with a good arm and low self esteem (he got upset last september when brewers fans booed him for going 0 for august, would he make it in boston?) does boston even need outfielders? i would imagine if the red sox were to trade a piece as valuable as bucholz, they'd do it for a shortstop, which they need more than an outfielder.

So we'll say it's Hart and Escobar for bucholz, i'd still make that deal. i think you could put hall (or play gerut or frankie, there are options to replace hart) in right and gamel at third, hmm..i like the sound of that.
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travis12
T_Unit14 wrote:


pistolpetefan23 wrote:


cory wrote:


Parra is probably not going to leave the rotation anytime soon (he's young and has potential, the brewers aren't getting off of that horse anytime soon) and Kendall wasn't going to get pinch hit for, they should have bunted, that absolutely should have happened, but they weren't going to pinch hit for him. is frankie coming in cold a better hitter than kendall? have kendall bunt and save frankie for another situation.

Parra would have to have a chin meng wang type of meltdown for the brewers to move him out of the rotation. the kid has the stuff to pitch, he's just gotta get his head out of his arse.


It doesn't matter who it is or how much potential they have, you can't keep trotting a guy out there with a 6.86 ERA and 1.83 WHIP when he's had 1/3 of the season to establish what he can do.


not saying I completely disagree with your assessment seeing as how a 6.86 ERA is pretty crappy...but lets not forget some great pitchers struggled early in their careers...I personally just feel that Parra is trying to do too much or being the pitcher he doesn't have to be...he was hearing and reading all of the same things we were about how he and gallardo had to fill in for sheets and sabathia and if they don't play good the team may suffer...I think he just needs to take the pressure off of himself...

for a reference on how you have to stick with young guys...Zach Greinke had a 5.80 ERA and a 5-17 record in his second full season...Roy Halladay had a 10.64 ERA and was 4-7 in his 3rd season...Wandy Rodriguez had a 5.53 and 5.64 ERA in his first two seasons...some guys just have off years or they have troubles early in their career harnessing their abilities...Josh Beckett has had an ERA over 5 in 06...some of the games best have struggled before as well...Greg Maddux had ERA's over 5 in his first two seasons...you get the point I think I'm trying to make...don't give up on potential too early...these guys will figure it out given time


Here's the difference, those guys either were on bad teams that could afford to wait (Greinke, Maddux) or weren't run out there every day (Halladay, Rodriguez). Halladay got 13 starts the year he had a 10+ ERA, and Jays finished 83-79, 4 1/2 games out of first. Rodriguez got 22 and 24 starts respectively in those years you mentioned although the Astros did make the playoffs in 05. So neither of those guys were trotted out there every day like the Brewers are doing with Parra. And when comparing Parra to Rodriguez, his ERA is over a full run higher.
Brock Michael Wilson -- 6/30/2011; 9 lbs, 13 oz & 21 in

10/22/2010 -- 598,210 pageviews for WSN

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pinetar
pistolpetefan23 wrote:


T_Unit14 wrote:


pistolpetefan23 wrote:


cory wrote:


Parra is probably not going to leave the rotation anytime soon (he's young and has potential, the brewers aren't getting off of that horse anytime soon) and Kendall wasn't going to get pinch hit for, they should have bunted, that absolutely should have happened, but they weren't going to pinch hit for him. is frankie coming in cold a better hitter than kendall? have kendall bunt and save frankie for another situation.

Parra would have to have a chin meng wang type of meltdown for the brewers to move him out of the rotation. the kid has the stuff to pitch, he's just gotta get his head out of his arse.


It doesn't matter who it is or how much potential they have, you can't keep trotting a guy out there with a 6.86 ERA and 1.83 WHIP when he's had 1/3 of the season to establish what he can do.


not saying I completely disagree with your assessment seeing as how a 6.86 ERA is pretty crappy...but lets not forget some great pitchers struggled early in their careers...I personally just feel that Parra is trying to do too much or being the pitcher he doesn't have to be...he was hearing and reading all of the same things we were about how he and gallardo had to fill in for sheets and sabathia and if they don't play good the team may suffer...I think he just needs to take the pressure off of himself...

for a reference on how you have to stick with young guys...Zach Greinke had a 5.80 ERA and a 5-17 record in his second full season...Roy Halladay had a 10.64 ERA and was 4-7 in his 3rd season...Wandy Rodriguez had a 5.53 and 5.64 ERA in his first two seasons...some guys just have off years or they have troubles early in their career harnessing their abilities...Josh Beckett has had an ERA over 5 in 06...some of the games best have struggled before as well...Greg Maddux had ERA's over 5 in his first two seasons...you get the point I think I'm trying to make...don't give up on potential too early...these guys will figure it out given time


Here's the difference, those guys either were on bad teams that could afford to wait (Greinke, Maddux) or weren't run out there every day (Halladay, Rodriguez). Halladay got 13 starts the year he had a 10+ ERA, and Jays finished 83-79, 4 1/2 games out of first. Rodriguez got 22 and 24 starts respectively in those years you mentioned although the Astros did make the playoffs in 05. So neither of those guys were trotted out there every day like the Brewers are doing with Parra. And when comparing Parra to Rodriguez, his ERA is over a full run higher.

I totally understand what you are saying...I am just saying I wouldn't just throw Parra under the bus...we need to work with him...the potential is there and we have seen him pitch well even last year...the guy has good stuff...I just don't understand why he all of the sudden has decided to lose it...don't give up on young pitchers is my moral...look at someone like Edwin Jackson too...I think he started with the Rays and was shaky so the sent him to the Tigers and now he is excelling...I think Parra CAN be that good...but obviously we all know right now is not working
cory wrote:


T_Unit14 wrote:


Hart and a prospect for Bucholz? I heard that rumor somewhere...and thats obviously all it is...but that would make me happy for sure...it obviously wouldn't help their infield...but if for some reason this is remotely a true rumor...DO IT


i'd do that in a hartbeat. that's the problem, the brewers definitely make that deal but i don't see it from boston's end. Bucholz isn't pitching great but has shown brilliance, Hart is a .250 hitter with a good arm and low self esteem (he got upset last september when brewers fans booed him for going 0 for august, would he make it in boston?) does boston even need outfielders? i would imagine if the red sox were to trade a piece as valuable as bucholz, they'd do it for a shortstop, which they need more than an outfielder.

So we'll say it's Hart and Escobar for bucholz, i'd still make that deal. i think you could put hall (or play gerut or frankie, there are options to replace hart) in right and gamel at third, hmm..i like the sound of that.


I would never give up an all star and a top prospect for a top prospect...I know what you are saying since they have the most obvious need at shortstop...but if that is the case we should be the ones coming out on top since they have the need for something and we have what they need...we could potentially leverage Escobar for Bucholz and another prospect or a mid level everyday player right now...I will try to find a link to the Hart and Bucholz thing though...but I would be completely against giving up hart and escobar and only getting bucholz...
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onwisconsin1
Same lineup today, hopefully they get a halfway decent outing from Parra today.
"I'm never quite sure what Brett Favre is doing."
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wizzler
good start by parra, better start by the defense. The braves haven't been hitting you cant give them easy ones. We don't want them thinking they are good or anything.

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