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coach40
goldball wrote:
mj11 wrote:
goldball wrote:
Thanks Travis.

First one... I made a multiplayer move mid-game last night, one involved inserting a bench player (B1) into the lineup in the 7-hole and at 1B. When he subsequently batted later, he reached on a walk. I pinch ran for him with a bench player (B2) thinking I could re-enter B1.

If B1 was not a game starter, does he have the same re-entry privilege as a starter?

Also, the pinch runner... can he enter the game later in a different position? Does it need to be same batting order even though he didn't bat, just ran?

Thanks for the help!


Rule 3-1-3
Any of the starting players may be withdrawn and re-entered once, including the player who was the DH, provided such player occupies the same batting position whenever he is in the lineup. A substitute who is withdrawn may not re-enter.


I read that reference. What I need to be clear on is whether or not a "pinch-runner" or "pinch-hitter" qualifies as a substitute, since it's not a "permanent switch". Hope that makes sense.


It is a substitution.
Do or do not---there is no try
Master Yoda
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mj11
goldball wrote:
mj11 wrote:
goldball wrote:
Thanks Travis.

First one... I made a multiplayer move mid-game last night, one involved inserting a bench player (B1) into the lineup in the 7-hole and at 1B. When he subsequently batted later, he reached on a walk. I pinch ran for him with a bench player (B2) thinking I could re-enter B1.

If B1 was not a game starter, does he have the same re-entry privilege as a starter?

Also, the pinch runner... can he enter the game later in a different position? Does it need to be same batting order even though he didn't bat, just ran?

Thanks for the help!


Rule 3-1-3
Any of the starting players may be withdrawn and re-entered once, including the player who was the DH, provided such player occupies the same batting position whenever he is in the lineup. A substitute who is withdrawn may not re-enter.


I read that reference. What I need to be clear on is whether or not a "pinch-runner" or "pinch-hitter" qualifies as a substitute, since it's not a "permanent switch". Hope that makes sense.


There really is no such thing as a pinch-runner or pinch-hitter in the rule book. A substitute is a substitute and they're all permanent in the umpires mind.
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rblanchard
A couple questions: Runners on first and third and the runner takes off for second. While running to second the pitcher balks. The balk was determined to have happened late in the runners advancement and the field ump determined he was close enough to second and gave him third base on the balk. Is that standard as it is the first time I have seen that happen.

Second, can a coach ask about location of pitches that looked like strikes but were called balls? How much room does a coach get when they cannot argue balls and strikes?
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safetysqueezepleezzee11
rblanchard wrote:
A couple questions: Runners on first and third and the runner takes off for second. While running to second the pitcher balks. The balk was determined to have happened late in the runners advancement and the field ump determined he was close enough to second and gave him third base on the balk. Is that standard as it is the first time I have seen that happen.

Second, can a coach ask about location of pitches that looked like strikes but were called balls? How much room does a coach get when they cannot argue balls and strikes?


For your balk question, I have never heard of awarding 2 bases UNLESS the pitcher throws the ball out of play.
Also a runner can advance IF the pitcher throws the ball, but it is on his OWN. Pitcher would have to have
throw the ball to another player in this case. Perhaps this is something new in high school baseball.
Pitcher throws the ball out of play AFTER a balk is called = 2 bases per runner. Only case I am aware of awarding
2 bases after a balk call. I actually have never seen it happen when umpiring myself.
A balk call is a dead ball so I don't see why the ump awarded 2 bases. If the pitcher throws the ball then it
is a delayed dead ball. It doesn't sound like that happened according to your statement.
Your situation sounds like the mythical '1 plus 1' stuff that many coaches and even umpires believe. Is no
such thing as a '1 plus 1'. Player has to be at a base to get a base or 2 bases. Doesn't matter if the runner is
over 1/2 way. Rec league softball was always good for this misinterpretation of a rule.

As far as your question on asking an ump about location: You certainly 'can' ask, but I wouldn't recommend it
unless you really know that ump very very well(if the umpire is a good friend for instance). If you simply come out to ask the ump about location of pitches, that would be considered 'arguing' balls and strikes by most umpires.
If it is done between innings, many umpires will probably be ok with it. I wouldn't recommend it at the actual
time though.
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buzzerbeater2
Player in starting lineup bats three times, reaches base once. In the 4th AB, reaches second with a double. Opposing coach calls time and talks to umpire. Name and position on lineup card are correct, number is not. Umpire calls player out. Rule 3-1-3 should indicate that it is a warning, correct?
Mike McCarthy is challenging the ruling on the field that he has 3 timeouts remaining.
Charter member of the WSN 1000-post Culb.

* - Banned for life from any WSN "Hall of Fame."

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coach40
buzzerbeater2 wrote:
Player in starting lineup bats three times, reaches base once. In the 4th AB, reaches second with a double. Opposing coach calls time and talks to umpire. Name and position on lineup card are correct, number is not. Umpire calls player out. Rule 3-1-3 should indicate that it is a warning, correct?


That is absolutely correct! Now after the warning if it happens again the umpire shall restrict the coach to the dugout. At no time is the player out
Do or do not---there is no try
Master Yoda
Quote 0 0
coach40
safetysqueezepleezzee11 wrote:
rblanchard wrote:
A couple questions: Runners on first and third and the runner takes off for second. While running to second the pitcher balks. The balk was determined to have happened late in the runners advancement and the field ump determined he was close enough to second and gave him third base on the balk. Is that standard as it is the first time I have seen that happen.

Second, can a coach ask about location of pitches that looked like strikes but were called balls? How much room does a coach get when they cannot argue balls and strikes?


For your balk question, I have never heard of awarding 2 bases UNLESS the pitcher throws the ball out of play.
Also a runner can advance IF the pitcher throws the ball, but it is on his OWN. Pitcher would have to have
throw the ball to another player in this case. Perhaps this is something new in high school baseball.
Pitcher throws the ball out of play AFTER a balk is called = 2 bases per runner. Only case I am aware of awarding
2 bases after a balk call. I actually have never seen it happen when umpiring myself.
A balk call is a dead ball so I don't see why the ump awarded 2 bases. If the pitcher throws the ball then it
is a delayed dead ball. It doesn't sound like that happened according to your statement.
Your situation sounds like the mythical '1 plus 1' stuff that many coaches and even umpires believe. Is no
such thing as a '1 plus 1'. Player has to be at a base to get a base or 2 bases. Doesn't matter if the runner is
over 1/2 way. Rec league softball was always good for this misinterpretation of a rule.

As far as your question on asking an ump about location: You certainly 'can' ask, but I wouldn't recommend it
unless you really know that ump very very well(if the umpire is a good friend for instance). If you simply come out to ask the ump about location of pitches, that would be considered 'arguing' balls and strikes by most umpires.
If it is done between innings, many umpires will probably be ok with it. I wouldn't recommend it at the actual
time though.


Once the balk is called it is a dead ball and the play is dead. Ball thrown out would not matter at that point.

There should not have been an advancement of bases for the runner. Just one base from the time of the pitch.


As for questioning where the ball is you have every right to ask if it was inside or high etc. However, I would ask the catcher! Just have them tell you if it was outside or inside. If they give the ho hum look then you know! Some umpires will not like being questioned.

I will ask if it was a outside or inside if I know it was in the zone otherwise.
Do or do not---there is no try
Master Yoda
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formerwiacbaseballer
mj11 wrote:
There really is no such thing as a pinch-runner or pinch-hitter in the rule book. A substitute is a substitute and they're all permanent in the umpires mind.

Not exactly.... A pinch runner for the pitcher or catcher is considered a "courtesy runner" and does not lose the ability to go into the game at a later point, []
"Let's Play Two!!!"

Baseball is not a game that builds character, it is a game that reveals it.

"There are three types of baseball players: those who make things happen, those who watch it happen, and those who wonder what happened."
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coach40
formerwiacbaseballer wrote:
mj11 wrote:
There really is no such thing as a pinch-runner or pinch-hitter in the rule book. A substitute is a substitute and they're all permanent in the umpires mind.

Not exactly.... A pinch runner for the pitcher or catcher is considered a "courtesy runner" and does not lose the ability to go into the game at a later point, []



HAHA funny you say that! I had an ump tell me that they were a sub this year. I laughed and told them no, they are a courtesy! Simple as that. So had to explain to them the whole rule with the courtesy and difference between pinch runner etc.

Do or do not---there is no try
Master Yoda
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buzzerbeater2
coach40 wrote:
buzzerbeater2 wrote:
Player in starting lineup bats three times, reaches base once. In the 4th AB, reaches second with a double. Opposing coach calls time and talks to umpire. Name and position on lineup card are correct, number is not. Umpire calls player out. Rule 3-1-3 should indicate that it is a warning, correct?


That is absolutely correct! Now after the warning if it happens again the umpire shall restrict the coach to the dugout. At no time is the player out


That's what I thought. Too bad it killed an inning, especially after the coach waited til the last inning.
Mike McCarthy is challenging the ruling on the field that he has 3 timeouts remaining.
Charter member of the WSN 1000-post Culb.

* - Banned for life from any WSN "Hall of Fame."

Quote 0 0
safetysqueezepleezzee11
coach40 wrote:
formerwiacbaseballer wrote:
mj11 wrote:
There really is no such thing as a pinch-runner or pinch-hitter in the rule book. A substitute is a substitute and they're all permanent in the umpires mind.

Not exactly.... A pinch runner for the pitcher or catcher is considered a "courtesy runner" and does not lose the ability to go into the game at a later point, []



HAHA funny you say that! I had an ump tell me that they were a sub this year. I laughed and told them no, they are a courtesy! Simple as that. So had to explain to them the whole rule with the courtesy and difference between pinch runner etc.



Isnt the courtesy runner the last batter that made an out on the bases or at bat if a strikeout?
That would mean the runner is IN the game.
I don't think you can run a player that is on the bench. I may be wrong on this but that is how it is done
in fastpitch softball. If you use a runner on the bench it would be a 'pinch-runner' and the hitter could
re-enter but the runner is done.
I am glad I don't ump anymore - too many changes in the game/games from fastpitch to baseball, for girls/boys
and men.
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coach40
safetysqueezepleezzee11 wrote:
coach40 wrote:
formerwiacbaseballer wrote:
mj11 wrote:
There really is no such thing as a pinch-runner or pinch-hitter in the rule book. A substitute is a substitute and they're all permanent in the umpires mind.

Not exactly.... A pinch runner for the pitcher or catcher is considered a "courtesy runner" and does not lose the ability to go into the game at a later point, []



HAHA funny you say that! I had an ump tell me that they were a sub this year. I laughed and told them no, they are a courtesy! Simple as that. So had to explain to them the whole rule with the courtesy and difference between pinch runner etc.



Isnt the courtesy runner the last batter that made an out on the bases or at bat if a strikeout?
That would mean the runner is IN the game.
I don't think you can run a player that is on the bench. I may be wrong on this but that is how it is done
in fastpitch softball. If you use a runner on the bench it would be a 'pinch-runner' and the hitter could
re-enter but the runner is done.
I am glad I don't ump anymore - too many changes in the game/games from fastpitch to baseball, for girls/boys
and men.


No, the courtesy runner is a possible sub listed on the back of our line-up cards. Only the Pitcher and Catcher may have a courtesy runner. Now any sub who has not been in the game may be used as a courtesy. So situation is

15 is catcher. Reaches 1st Base. Courtesy runner is 2. 2 runs for 15....later on if 2 is subbed in some where 3 could be a courtesy runner. However, number 2 no longer can be a courtesy runner since they were subbed in. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PINCH RUNNER. It is a substitution when done for anyone other than the P or C. Now you are correct that if the hitter re-enters that runner is done.

You are thinking too much bar league stuff when you think of the last out running.
Do or do not---there is no try
Master Yoda
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safetysqueezepleezzee11
coach40 wrote:
safetysqueezepleezzee11 wrote:
coach40 wrote:
formerwiacbaseballer wrote:
mj11 wrote:
There really is no such thing as a pinch-runner or pinch-hitter in the rule book. A substitute is a substitute and they're all permanent in the umpires mind.

Not exactly.... A pinch runner for the pitcher or catcher is considered a "courtesy runner" and does not lose the ability to go into the game at a later point, []



HAHA funny you say that! I had an ump tell me that they were a sub this year. I laughed and told them no, they are a courtesy! Simple as that. So had to explain to them the whole rule with the courtesy and difference between pinch runner etc.



Isnt the courtesy runner the last batter that made an out on the bases or at bat if a strikeout?
That would mean the runner is IN the game.
I don't think you can run a player that is on the bench. I may be wrong on this but that is how it is done
in fastpitch softball. If you use a runner on the bench it would be a 'pinch-runner' and the hitter could
re-enter but the runner is done.
I am glad I don't ump anymore - too many changes in the game/games from fastpitch to baseball, for girls/boys
and men.


No, the courtesy runner is a possible sub listed on the back of our line-up cards. Only the Pitcher and Catcher may have a courtesy runner. Now any sub who has not been in the game may be used as a courtesy. So situation is

15 is catcher. Reaches 1st Base. Courtesy runner is 2. 2 runs for 15....later on if 2 is subbed in some where 3 could be a courtesy runner. However, number 2 no longer can be a courtesy runner since they were subbed in. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PINCH RUNNER. It is a substitution when done for anyone other than the P or C. Now you are correct that if the hitter re-enters that runner is done.

You are thinking too much bar league stuff when you think of the last out running.


Wasn't talking bar league at all. ISC and ASA open level men's fastpitch is what I stated.
Younger girl's fastpitch in the summer also uses a version of what I stated. I was told
it gets the catcher and pitcher out to the field faster between innings. I don't buy it though.
As I said, I am glad I am not umping anymore. I have also seen it used for Pony league baseball
in the summer. Things are always changing and it depends on where you are in the state - the league, the
ages, the type of ball.
I haven't been associated with any bar or city league stuff for over 25 years for men.
I grew up with one set of rules for fastpitch softball and one for baseball - that was in the 1950's though.
Tons and tons of changes since then.
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levelm
For some reason baseball and softball do seem to have the most variation in rule codes:

NFHS, OBR, ASA, USSSA, NCAA, Pony, LL, and then all the local adaptations.

Football really only has High school, college, and pro rules. And basketball somehow really only has 1 set of rules.

safetysqueeze, in leagues where the entire team is in the lineup, like youth softball, there are no subs to be a courtesy runner, so the last out is often used for the reason you said, so the catcher can start to get his/her gear on and not hold up the game. And even then sometimes it's pitcher and/or catcher, mandatory or optional, only with 2 outs or at any time - all depends on the rules you are using.
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mj11
formerwiacbaseballer wrote:
mj11 wrote:
There really is no such thing as a pinch-runner or pinch-hitter in the rule book. A substitute is a substitute and they're all permanent in the umpires mind.

Not exactly.... A pinch runner for the pitcher or catcher is considered a "courtesy runner" and does not lose the ability to go into the game at a later point, []


OK WIAC, you got me there.
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