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wompuscat
all great points now coming out. I just wanted to get past the comments that just made to flame. I look at the players based on my own observations. I am not going to pretend that I am the ultimate authority on the game. and yes, I was just basing it on the Jordan / Kobe / Lebron debate.

Russell, Chamberlain, O. Roberts, and a myriad of others could be brought into the conversation. I put Jordan #1, and then the rest is a debate as to how the others get ranked.
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thebillwaltontrip
woodhoops wrote:


Kobe is 1x MVP, 2x Finals MVP, and 3rd best player of his generation behind Tim Duncan (definitely) and Shaq (Could be a discussion). Great longevity and shot volume, but was the MVP of the league for one year in 18 years, hard to put him in with Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, LeBron, Moses, Bill Russell, Duncan.




Shaq and Kobe are certainly not behind Duncan.

Duncan was a top five player in the league for his first 7 seasons, then his production and consistency dipped and he dropped out of that tier. Shaq and Kobe spent a good decade plus playing at a top five level. Plus, not to mention, both own Duncan head-to-head in playoff battles.
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thebillwaltontrip
dawgstyle wrote:


Just explain to me how the #2 best player of all time misses the playoffs in his prime? Lebron turns awful teams into NBA Finals participants and leaves NBA Finals participants, making them into awful teams.



Don't forget to mention the fact that the teams are completely manufactured and overhauled from what they were before LeBron arrived and after he departs.

Nobody in the league is more dependent upon having a manufactured team around them to give the illusion of them being a winner than LeBron is.

LeBron had to have Cleveland go out and acquire JR Smith, Iman Shumpert, and Timofey Mozgov because he could only manage to have Cleveland playing .500 basketball despite having two All-Stars playing alongside him.

Kobe went through a complete roster overhaul after Shaq was traded and managed to lead a team of young, inexperienced, raw guys to the playoffs in consecutive seasons. Then, with the addition of just one quality player of whom he helped elevate to All-Star status, took that same group of guys to three straight NBA Finals appearances with two championships coming at the expense of teams that discarded LeBron-led teams like soiled toilet paper in the playoffs that year.

LeBron has to have those around him cater to his style of play. Guys like Kobe and the other all-time greats are able to cater their style of play to those around him while still finding ways to be successful themselves.
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woodhoops
dawgstyle wrote:
woodhoops wrote:
Its one thing to make the case that Kobe is better than Lebron. Easily arguable, and I probably agree with it. But to call Lebron Lefake, Lefraud, just makes yourself look like an idiot Troll on this board.



Shaq > Duncan. Shaq is the most dominant basketball player of my lifetime. (31 years.) Mind you I said dominant and not greatest. Shaq is my generations Bill Russell. Rules and strategies were designed around this man.

Again my favorite thing about Kobe fans is that they like to group him in with Jordan when they say that LeBron isn't their level. THEY don't share a level. Kobe isn't 1/4 of the player Jordan was. At best Kobe could hope to sweep the floor after Jordan got done playing on it. LeBron isn't on that level either. Comparing these guys to Jordan isn't even close to fair. If Jordan didn't have a gambling problem, he'd have won 8 straight titles.


I waffle on the Shaq / Duncan argument. I think the 2 most dominant players of my lifetime have been Jordan and Shaq, If you had either one of them on your team and a replacement level supporting cast, you were set. Shaq steamrolling to 3 straight Finals MVP's were incredible to watch. It's probably recency bias that Duncan is still going, and could have easily won 2 more Finals MVP's against the Heat. I think 1. Shaq 2. Duncan 3. Kobe is reasonable.
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dawgstyle
thebillwaltontrip wrote:
dawgstyle wrote:


Just explain to me how the #2 best player of all time misses the playoffs in his prime? Lebron turns awful teams into NBA Finals participants and leaves NBA Finals participants, making them into awful teams.



Don't forget to mention the fact that the teams are completely manufactured and overhauled from what they were before LeBron arrived and after he departs.

Nobody in the league is more dependent upon having a manufactured team around them to give the illusion of them being a winner than LeBron is.

LeBron had to have Cleveland go out and acquire JR Smith, Iman Shumpert, and Timofey Mozgov because he could only manage to have Cleveland playing .500 basketball despite having two All-Stars playing alongside him.

Kobe went through a complete roster overhaul after Shaq was traded and managed to lead a team of young, inexperienced, raw guys to the playoffs in consecutive seasons. Then, with the addition of just one quality player of whom he helped elevate to All-Star status, took that same group of guys to three straight NBA Finals appearances with two championships coming at the expense of teams that discarded LeBron-led teams like soiled toilet paper in the playoffs that year.

LeBron has to have those around him cater to his style of play. Guys like Kobe and the other all-time greats are able to cater their style of play to those around him while still finding ways to be successful themselves.


Kobe still didn't win a playoff series in that 3 years. One of the greatest of all time should be able to accomplish that. I get it, you are a Kobe fan. You are blind with love for the man.
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
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thebillwaltontrip
The look of resignation on LeBron's face during the fourth quarter said it all, he was a man who had no interest or desire in even playing another game of basketball this season.
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safetysqueezepleezzee11
dawgstyle wrote:
woodhoops wrote:
wompuscat wrote:
Its one thing to make the case that Kobe is better than Lebron. Easily arguable, and I probably agree with it. But to call Lebron Lefake, Lefraud, just makes yourself look like an idiot Troll on this board.

#1 - Jordan, #2 - Kobe, #3 - Lebron in terms of who ranks as the best of all time. IMO. Jordan's mental toughness and desire are what makes him #1.

for flat out talent and physical ability. I would reverse it.
#1 Lebron, #2 Kobe, #3 - Jordan.

If Lebron ever gets his mindset in the same area as Jordan and Kobe had at their prime, then he might lay claim to the all time best title. You can argue any one of these based on your preference, but let's try to be realistic and keep the Trolling to FB.


I hope we are just comparing these 3 players, and not ignoring some All Timers.

Jordan 5x MVP, 6x Finals MVP
LBJ 4x MVP, 2x Finals MVP - easily best player since Jordan, if he could steal a 3rd Finals MVP with his glorified lottery team, the next 2 years look great for him to return to the Finals. He's been to 5 straight Finals, "mindset" seems fine.

Kobe is 1x MVP, 2x Finals MVP, and 3rd best player of his generation behind Tim Duncan (definitely) and Shaq (Could be a discussion). Great longevity and shot volume, but was the MVP of the league for one year in 18 years, hard to put him in with Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, LeBron, Moses, Bill Russell, Duncan.




Shaq > Duncan. Shaq is the most dominant basketball player of my lifetime. (31 years.) Mind you I said dominant and not greatest. Shaq is my generations Bill Russell. Rules and strategies were designed around this man.

Again my favorite thing about Kobe fans is that they like to group him in with Jordan when they say that LeBron isn't their level. THEY don't share a level. Kobe isn't 1/4 of the player Jordan was. At best Kobe could hope to sweep the floor after Jordan got done playing on it. LeBron isn't on that level either. Comparing these guys to Jordan isn't even close to fair. If Jordan didn't have a gambling problem, he'd have won 8 straight titles.


Are you aware the Wilt absolutely dominated Bill Russell 'man to man' in games they played against each other?
I agree Russell was a great player but he also played with much better teams(teammates). Wilt was by far the most
dominant player and greatest player of the 1960's and it wasn't even close who was 2nd. I have actually never seen
a better player EVER than Wilt over the years. Personally, I would say Oscar was #2 in both measurements in the 1960's. Baylor and Jerry West would be right there with Russell to round out the
top 5. I watched all of these guys thru the 1960's and no one was even close to Wilt,then or EVER.
Russell's teams won more but he had great teammates. Until 1967, Wilt was never really on a team with great
teammates. I always hear that Wilt wasn't a great team player, but he was when he actually had great teammates
on his team like Russell did.
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safetysqueezepleezzee11
I just looked at the stats for the championship series. Lebron shot 206 shots and made 78. I am actually
surprised the series went 6 games looking at James's stats on shooting.
13 for 42 from 3 point. I wonder what his overall % would be if you took out the dunks and layups?
Perhaps James needs to go to the Sam Dekker outside shooting camp.
These are the 2 worst teams I think I have ever seen in a finals.
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