mickjagger Show full post »
dawgstyle


I dont know alot about the entire Smith situation, but I do find it bizarre that there were no police charges filed against Smith by his wife. Why the hell was his wife supposedly emailing with Urban's wife and NOT going to the police??  The entire situation has put out just enough info to make for a nice mystery novel. This is actually the definition of a 'witch hunt' when it come to Urban Meyer. Smith is the real CULPRIT, yet many want to blame Urban Meyer and his wife. When the $hit hits the fan, we are all ultimately responsible for ourselves and our own safety. I doubt many on this site have had any dealing with employment law - what often looks like 'common sense' often isnt. I once had an employee in my dental practice that was apparently being abused by her boyfriend. How did I find out? Another employee told me. I talked with my attorney and was given the advise that unless this woman actually came to me - to keep out of it. That was 25 years ago and times have changed, but my attorney told me I had tremendous liability if I stuck my nose in and even talked to the employee about it(asking her to make it simply). If the woman was to come to me with 'first' person knowledge, then I was at a point of talking with her about it. I dont really know how Urban Meyer's wife works into this situation, but it seems odd to me that the woman(Smith's wife) didnt email right to Urban. The entire situation is just bizarre. Of course the media is going to jump on Urban Meyer - in today's world it is easy to do that right off the bat then slide down the slippery pole later when it is found out that Urban Meyer didnt actually have the knowledge that some 'experts' think they know. I assume there are many many attorney's involved in figuring this out for Urban Meyer and the Ohio State brass. All we can do is wait for the truth to come out. Urban Meyer may have liability, those above Urban may have the liability, Urban's wife may have the liability - these kind of cases can get extremely complicated.

Just way too much information hasnt come out yet to determine Meyer's fate to us in the public. That info 'may' be there already, but way way to much innuendo, 2nd hand info, gossip, etc to make an educated call on this. It WILL come out and whatever comes out wont surprise me. I have been around long enough to almost expect 'slime' to come out on successful people, EVENTUALLY!


No one is disputing that Smith is the culprit.  He was fired for being so.  

Courtney went to the cops.  Last I heard the count was something like 12 times.  Zach was charged with a misdemeanor the first time after Courtney was pressured to back off the charges by Smith's uncle and Meyers life coach.  

Two questions I keep asking people that say there is nothing to see here.  

If Smith never touched her, why did the Judge grant her a protection order?

If Meyer never had any evidence to support her claims, why did Smith get fired in the end?

If you stop to look at all sides claims and the ACTUAL outcomes of the events, it is clear something was going on.

Lastly, your example of your employee being abused is completely irrelevant in this situation.  Meyer and his wife are both required by their employers through Title IX to report any knowledge of domestic abuse when it comes to OSU.  If they didn't do so, they should terminated.

Anyone who thinks this is a witch hunt has their head buried in the sand.
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
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safetysqueezepleezzee11
dawgstyle wrote:


No one is disputing that Smith is the culprit.  He was fired for being so.  

Courtney went to the cops.  Last I heard the count was something like 12 times.  Zach was charged with a misdemeanor the first time after Courtney was pressured to back off the charges by Smith's uncle and Meyers life coach.  

Two questions I keep asking people that say there is nothing to see here.  

If Smith never touched her, why did the Judge grant her a protection order?

If Meyer never had any evidence to support her claims, why did Smith get fired in the end?

If you stop to look at all sides claims and the ACTUAL outcomes of the events, it is clear something was going on.

Lastly, your example of your employee being abused is completely irrelevant in this situation.  Meyer and his wife are both required by their employers through Title IX to report any knowledge of domestic abuse when it comes to OSU.  If they didn't do so, they should terminated.

Anyone who thinks this is a witch hunt has their head buried in the sand.


I wasnt aware that Urban Meyer's wife was an OHS employee.  My comment was that my attorney told me that I couldnt take "2nd hand" information as being reliable. My attorney told me I could get my butt in a jam, if I approached one employee about abuse by relying on information from a 2nd employee. If the employee in question had come to me, I would have recommended the police/sherriff AND I actually did have that occur at one time during my practice with another woman who came to me directly.

I took it that 'if' Urban was getting info from his wife, it was 2nd hand. If she is an employee, that would change the situation entirely. Just too much is not known by us in the public. I dont know what happened,  but much of the way it is being presented makes it look like a witch hunt. I read that Urban Meyer did follow the proper chain of command for these things. I have no idea if that is true or bs.  Seems as if the attorney's are taking their time - dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's. I dont know what to believe when I read stuff - either in newspapers or online. I had heard the wife didnt press charges - no idea if that is true or not. It doesnt change the behavior, but it changes that case that is being presented by some. One has to be extremely careful with employment law as one in power can slide into a libel/slander situation easily. I think at this time, the University is trying to figure out if they(the University itself) followed proper procedures. Smith sounds obviously guilty of something - I just dont know what the it is. I had read Smith was arrested for a DUI that eventually got reduced to a misdemeanor. I think Wisconsin is the ONLY state where the 1st DUI is a misdemeanor.  What were the 12 counts with the cops that concerned Smith's wife?

I do question why Meyer brought Smith to OHS when Urban took the head coaching job with OHS. Have to wonder if he was 'pressured' to hire the guy because of the guy being a grandson of Bruce. Seems like many many angles to this story and to just say people should be fired without knowing all the info is ludicrus. Let the situation work it's way thru the proper channels. Then we can say if Urban should have been fired if he doesnt get fired. Same goes for Urban's wife. That seems like some shaky info that got out into the media. I dont believe much that is in the media anymore, just because it is stated. I want to see the facts.
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dfnewburry
dawgstyle wrote:


No one is disputing that Smith is the culprit.  He was fired for being so.  

Courtney went to the cops.  Last I heard the count was something like 12 times.  Zach was charged with a misdemeanor the first time after Courtney was pressured to back off the charges by Smith's uncle and Meyers life coach.  

Two questions I keep asking people that say there is nothing to see here.  

If Smith never touched her, why did the Judge grant her a protection order?

If Meyer never had any evidence to support her claims, why did Smith get fired in the end?

If you stop to look at all sides claims and the ACTUAL outcomes of the events, it is clear something was going on.

Lastly, your example of your employee being abused is completely irrelevant in this situation.  Meyer and his wife are both required by their employers through Title IX to report any knowledge of domestic abuse when it comes to OSU.  If they didn't do so, they should terminated.

Anyone who thinks this is a witch hunt has their head buried in the sand.


No evidence that Smith is a culprit , the university fired him simply because they could to save face after approving the hire .

Smith has only ever been charged with criminal trespass pertaining to where he dropped off his child after his shared custody visitation .

Protection order was granted based on allegations by the wife , Smith has never been charged with domestic violence and has shared custody of his children which says all we really need to know about the allegations .

After the allegations that ruined the career of Mike Price , I wait for allegations to be proven as facts .








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dawgstyle
dfnewburry wrote:


No evidence that Smith is a culprit , the university fired him simply because they could to save face after approving the hire .

Smith has only ever been charged with criminal trespass pertaining to where he dropped off his child after his shared custody visitation .

Protection order was granted based on allegations by the wife , Smith has never been charged with domestic violence and has shared custody of his children which says all we really need to know about the allegations .

After the allegations that ruined the career of Mike Price , I wait for allegations to be proven as facts .


Judges don't grant protection orders based on allegations. There needs to be evidence.  Otherwise I could just get protection orders against people I don't like to keep them from being around me.

If there is no evidence that Smith is a culprit, why does the university need to save face?  Why did Urban lie about 2015?  

There's nothing to see here...lol 
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
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dawgstyle


I wasnt aware that Urban Meyer's wife was an OHS employee.  My comment was that my attorney told me that I couldnt take "2nd hand" information as being reliable. My attorney told me I could get my butt in a jam, if I approached one employee about abuse by relying on information from a 2nd employee. If the employee in question had come to me, I would have recommended the police/sherriff AND I actually did have that occur at one time during my practice with another woman who came to me directly.

I took it that 'if' Urban was getting info from his wife, it was 2nd hand. If she is an employee, that would change the situation entirely. Just too much is not known by us in the public. I dont know what happened,  but much of the way it is being presented makes it look like a witch hunt. I read that Urban Meyer did follow the proper chain of command for these things. I have no idea if that is true or bs.  Seems as if the attorney's are taking their time - dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's. I dont know what to believe when I read stuff - either in newspapers or online. I had heard the wife didnt press charges - no idea if that is true or not. It doesnt change the behavior, but it changes that case that is being presented by some. One has to be extremely careful with employment law as one in power can slide into a libel/slander situation easily. I think at this time, the University is trying to figure out if they(the University itself) followed proper procedures. Smith sounds obviously guilty of something - I just dont know what the it is. I had read Smith was arrested for a DUI that eventually got reduced to a misdemeanor. I think Wisconsin is the ONLY state where the 1st DUI is a misdemeanor.  What were the 12 counts with the cops that concerned Smith's wife?

I do question why Meyer brought Smith to OHS when Urban took the head coaching job with OHS. Have to wonder if he was 'pressured' to hire the guy because of the guy being a grandson of Bruce. Seems like many many angles to this story and to just say people should be fired without knowing all the info is ludicrus. Let the situation work it's way thru the proper channels. Then we can say if Urban should have been fired if he doesnt get fired. Same goes for Urban's wife. That seems like some shaky info that got out into the media. I dont believe much that is in the media anymore, just because it is stated. I want to see the facts.


Even if it is 2nd hand, he would be required to report it.

His wife works for OSUs college of nursing. 

What gets really messy is that it's been but unconfirmed is that most of the coaches wives were aware of the allegations and unless you believe they didn't tell their husbands, those people would be required to report it as well.

All its going to take is one former coach, player, or grad assistant that left on bad terms to come forward and Columbus will burn.
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
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blade12
dawgstyle wrote:


Judges don't grant protection orders based on allegations. There needs to be evidence.  Otherwise I could just get protection orders against people I don't like to keep them from being around me.

If there is no evidence that Smith is a culprit, why does the university need to save face?  Why did Urban lie about 2015?  

There's nothing to see here...lol 


This is just one source of events. I highlighted a few things.    https://sports.yahoo.com/new-documents-detail-timeline-zach-smiths-alleged-abuse-235056848.html

2015
On Nov. 9, per McMurphy, Zach Smith was charged with menacing by stalking.

  • On Nov. 10, per McMurphy, Courtney was granted a restraining order against Zach.
  • On Nov. 12, Courtney filed for a divorce.

2018

Seems to me he violated the restraining order, was charged with that and within 5 days OSU fired him for that.
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safetysqueezepleezzee11
dawgstyle wrote:


Judges don't grant protection orders based on allegations. There needs to be evidence.  Otherwise I could just get protection orders against people I don't like to keep them from being around me.



If there is no evidence that Smith is a culprit, why does the university need to save face?  Why did Urban lie about 2015?  

There's nothing to see here...lol 


I personally know several women that got 'protection orders' without any abuse(or any other domestic reasons having been done to the women by the men). Women can basically just ask for it.  You sound pretty nieve when it comes to women separating from men. If women dont want any contact with the man(it usually comes down to a certain number of feet - 100 feet being common), it is almost always given. In one of these cases I was good friends with both the man and the women. She had worked for me for years prior to marrying the guy. When she 'threw him out'(his words) - it came out of no where.  He was a good friend of mine and I found out by fluke. I called him to go bowhunt - he told me that 'she' threw him out. I laughed and asked what he was talking about. She had papers served to him and to this day, I have no idea why. He was in the dark, her parents were in the dark and I was in the dark as she still worked part time for me. To this day, I have no idea why she threw him out. She told me there was no abuse, but she didnt want to go to counseling. Her parents were also patients and friends of mine and never figured it out. Her dad was a psychiatrist and we talked about it for a long time. I told him I never heard a bad word said by her about him. Her parents had seen nothing either. Something snapped in her world and she really really took it out on him. Neither was 'running around'. They had  6 and 8 year old boys.
 
Another of the women I knew that got separation orders told me that the guy had done nothing - she just didnt want to be near him when she had custody of the children or when custody was transferred.  They shared custody, but used her sister as a go-between when transferring the children.It isnt that hard for women to get them. No you couldnt JUST get a protection order against people you dont like - that is more of your stupid gossip you are trying to input into this case.

I saw so many separated, divorced, single parents and the resultant children over the years; I could write a book on this crap. I had women who had children with 3-4-5 different men. I had men who were the fathers of children with 3-4-5 different women. Sometimes we needed a chalkboard in my dental office to try to remember whose kids were with which parents.

Many pieces to this puzzle - the marital problems/probable abuse, the DUI, the hiring once Meyer got to OHS, Meyer's wife's involvement,  continuing Smith's job after the initial crap went down at Florida, how he ever got hired at OHS. Just way too much going on to try to put it all on Urban Meyer - in fact that is just pure BS to try to blame Meyer at this point. Some of this may be his fault, but to blame the situation on OHS, Meyer and Meyer's wife is just stupid and simplistic.
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dawgstyle
blade12 wrote:


This is just one source of events. I highlighted a few things.    https://sports.yahoo.com/new-documents-detail-timeline-zach-smiths-alleged-abuse-235056848.html

2015
On Nov. 9, per McMurphy, Zach Smith was charged with menacing by stalking.

  • On Nov. 10, per McMurphy, Courtney was granted a restraining order against Zach.
  • On Nov. 12, Courtney filed for a divorce.

2018

Seems to me he violated the restraining order, was charged with that and within 5 days OSU fired him for that.


Literally can't read the yellow. 

So his misdemeanor charge in Florida wasn't enough to fire him, but violating the restraining order which was completely understandable given the circumstances was?  C'mon man...
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
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dawgstyle


I personally know several women that got 'protection orders' without any abuse(or any other domestic reasons having been done to the women by the men). Women can basically just ask for it.  You sound pretty nieve when it comes to women separating from men. If women dont want any contact with the man(it usually comes down to a certain number of feet - 100 feet being common), it is almost always given. In one of these cases I was good friends with both the man and the women. She had worked for me for years prior to marrying the guy. When she 'threw him out'(his words) - it came out of no where.  He was a good friend of mine and I found out by fluke. I called him to go bowhunt - he told me that 'she' threw him out. I laughed and asked what he was talking about. She had papers served to him and to this day, I have no idea why. He was in the dark, her parents were in the dark and I was in the dark as she still worked part time for me. To this day, I have no idea why she threw him out. She told me there was no abuse, but she didnt want to go to counseling. Her parents were also patients and friends of mine and never figured it out. Her dad was a psychiatrist and we talked about it for a long time. I told him I never heard a bad word said by her about him. Her parents had seen nothing either. Something snapped in her world and she really really took it out on him. Neither was 'running around'. They had  6 and 8 year old boys.
 
Another of the women I knew that got separation orders told me that the guy had done nothing - she just didnt want to be near him when she had custody of the children or when custody was transferred.  They shared custody, but used her sister as a go-between when transferring the children.It isnt that hard for women to get them. No you couldnt JUST get a protection order against people you dont like - that is more of your stupid gossip you are trying to input into this case.

I saw so many separated, divorced, single parents and the resultant children over the years; I could write a book on this crap. I had women who had children with 3-4-5 different men. I had men who were the fathers of children with 3-4-5 different women. Sometimes we needed a chalkboard in my dental office to try to remember whose kids were with which parents.

Many pieces to this puzzle - the marital problems/probable abuse, the DUI, the hiring once Meyer got to OHS, Meyer's wife's involvement,  continuing Smith's job after the initial crap went down at Florida, how he ever got hired at OHS. Just way too much going on to try to put it all on Urban Meyer - in fact that is just pure BS to try to blame Meyer at this point. Some of this may be his fault, but to blame the situation on OHS, Meyer and Meyer's wife is just stupid and simplistic.


I'm not going to go back and forth with you over protection orders.  I have had female friends get them denied by a judge because all the threats were verbal and no threat to safety could be shown. 

So you posted all of those very questionable acts in your last paragraph and then say you can't put it on OSU OR Meyer.  A coach and a university seemed to select and approve the hiring of what appears to be a class 1 scum bag, who continued to be that guy while employed but his boss and his employer have no culpability in it?  C'mon man...
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
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mickjagger


I dont know alot about the entire Smith situation, but I do find it bizarre that there were no police charges filed against Smith by his wife. Why the hell was his wife supposedly emailing with Urban's wife and NOT going to the police??  The entire situation has put out just enough info to make for a nice mystery novel. This is actually the definition of a 'witch hunt' when it come to Urban Meyer. Smith is the real CULPRIT, yet many want to blame Urban Meyer and his wife. When the $hit hits the fan, we are all ultimately responsible for ourselves and our own safety. I doubt many on this site have had any dealing with employment law - what often looks like 'common sense' often isnt. I once had an employee in my dental practice that was apparently being abused by her boyfriend. How did I find out? Another employee told me. I talked with my attorney and was given the advise that unless this woman actually came to me - to keep out of it. That was 25 years ago and times have changed, but my attorney told me I had tremendous liability if I stuck my nose in and even talked to the employee about it(asking her to make it simply). If the woman was to come to me with 'first' person knowledge, then I was at a point of talking with her about it. I dont really know how Urban Meyer's wife works into this situation, but it seems odd to me that the woman(Smith's wife) didnt email right to Urban. The entire situation is just bizarre. Of course the media is going to jump on Urban Meyer - in today's world it is easy to do that right off the bat then slide down the slippery pole later when it is found out that Urban Meyer didnt actually have the knowledge that some 'experts' think they know. I assume there are many many attorney's involved in figuring this out for Urban Meyer and the Ohio State brass. All we can do is wait for the truth to come out. Urban Meyer may have liability, those above Urban may have the liability, Urban's wife may have the liability - these kind of cases can get extremely complicated.

Just way too much information hasnt come out yet to determine Meyer's fate to us in the public. That info 'may' be there already, but way way to much innuendo, 2nd hand info, gossip, etc to make an educated call on this. It WILL come out and whatever comes out wont surprise me. I have been around long enough to almost expect 'slime' to come out on successful people, EVENTUALLY!
Zach Smith's wife contacted police a documented minimum of 3 times over the years to report domestic abuse !

https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2018/08/courtney_smith_ex-wife_of_zach.html
Wisconsin Sports Network Hall of Fame Inductee, 2012
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kenny78
dawgstyle wrote:


No one is disputing that Smith is the culprit.  He was fired for being so.  

Courtney went to the cops.  Last I heard the count was something like 12 times.  Zach was charged with a misdemeanor the first time after Courtney was pressured to back off the charges by Smith's uncle and Meyers life coach.  

Two questions I keep asking people that say there is nothing to see here.  

If Smith never touched her, why did the Judge grant her a protection order?

If Meyer never had any evidence to support her claims, why did Smith get fired in the end?

If you stop to look at all sides claims and the ACTUAL outcomes of the events, it is clear something was going on.

Lastly, your example of your employee being abused is completely irrelevant in this situation.  Meyer and his wife are both required by their employers through Title IX to report any knowledge of domestic abuse when it comes to OSU.  If they didn't do so, they should terminated.

Anyone who thinks this is a witch hunt has their head buried in the sand.



Nowhere in Title IX do I see any text that discusses domestic violence as it relates to non-students. I do not see where you come up with the conclusion that Meyer and his wife are required to report anything like that. Title IX discusses students, period. I do not believe that it is the head coach's responsibility to police his staff any more than he should be responsible for policing his players when they are away from the university. I also don't think that a head coach or his staff should interfere with law enforcement when players or assistant coaches get themselves in trouble.
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safetysqueezepleezzee11
dawgstyle wrote:


I'm not going to go back and forth with you over protection orders.  I have had female friends get them denied by a judge because all the threats were verbal and no threat to safety could be shown. 

So you posted all of those very questionable acts in your last paragraph and then say you can't put it on OSU OR Meyer.  A coach and a university seemed to select and approve the hiring of what appears to be a class 1 scum bag, who continued to be that guy while employed but his boss and his employer have no culpability in it?  C'mon man...


Allegations and 'gossip' are just not facts. I posted 'what I heard', which isnt gospel or fact. It is what I heard or read. NO, I actually cant put those on either OSU or Meyer at this time as I dont know what is fact and what is not fact. As far as protection orders go - every case I know of involved children, so that may make a difference. The man and woman were married, but separated and sharing custody of the children.

I do admit that Smith ending up on the coaching staff at OHS after Meyer got the head coaching job looks REAL BAD right now. I dont know the circumstances of his hire and I doubt anyone else in the public does yet either. The University has to get it's ducks in a row, then they will have to deal with what occurred. I just dont know 'what happened when, what agreements may be in place, why Smith was even considered for a job at OHS and many other questions. Most of this stuff is still sealed up - when it opens up we will all know who the culprits are besides Smith(if there are any).  Sounds like Meyer's wife was the one with the 1st person info, so perhaps she needed to go upstairs with that info. So much we dont know. Just because Meyer's wife told Meyer doesnt implicate Urban the way I see it. It may implicate Urban's wife though. That I dont know - as I said, I didnt know she was an employee of OHS.

I think one has to start with the 'top down approach' and not the 'bottom up approach'. Just to much hearsay and gossip with a bottom up approach.  As Sgt Friday would say "just that facts ma'am".
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safetysqueezepleezzee11
kenny78 wrote:



Nowhere in Title IX do I see any text that discusses domestic violence as it relates to non-students. I do not see where you come up with the conclusion that Meyer and his wife are required to report anything like that. Title IX discusses students, period. I do not believe that it is the head coach's responsibility to police his staff any more than he should be responsible for policing his players when they are away from the university. I also don't think that a head coach or his staff should interfere with law enforcement when players or assistant coaches get themselves in trouble.


I agree - that is the way I see it too.
When everyone started throwing TITLE 9 garbage around, I also went and read the TITLE 9 and didnt see where it applied to employees or their wives. Perhaps I missed something, but the TITLE 9 stuff 'threw' me as I always thought that dealt with students ONLY. I hear people throwing the TITLE 9 moniker around as much as I hear the 'freedom of speech' moniker thrown around and most of the time it doesnt apply in either case. It is easy to put 'blame' on people and sully them, but rarely do we hear those same people apologize when they are proven wrong.

In some ways it reminds me of my buddy from Minny who always claimed Bo Ryan and Barry Alvarez cheated to win, but when I asked him to prove it, he had NOTHING!!  Something did actually happen with this Smith dude and this situation, but some are trying to put blame on people who at this time have not been shown to have done anything wrong. Let the investigation figure it out - it usually does just that.
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dawgstyle
It's great that the two of you went and reviewed it and determined it has no standing here.  However, I will trust the dozens of legal experts that have already weighed in on this and explained why title IX applied here.
@2GuysFromWI

Harbaugh will have Urban Meyer retired from OSU by 2020.
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safetysqueezepleezzee11
dawgstyle wrote:
It's great that the two of you went and reviewed it and determined it has no standing here.  However, I will trust the dozens of legal experts that have already weighed in on this and explained why title IX applied here.


Who are the legal experts you are citing?  The stuff I read about this being a TITLE 9 thing, were NOT written by legal experts. What legal experts can you cite?

Reminds me a bit of those saying John Brennan's 1st ammendment(freedom of speech) is being affected because Trump had his security clearance pulled. That has NO affect on Brennan's 1st ammendment rights - it didnt when he had the security clearance and it doesnt now that he has no security clearance.

Unless Smith's wife is a student, I cant see where TITLE 9 comes in. You remind me of Nancy Armore and her USA Newpaper columns - everything to her has TITLE 9 implications. Problem is if you read and understand TITLE 9, there is nothing written in text about how TITLE 9 can be used for non-students.

TITLE IX - (original text) part of the Education Amendments of 1972

"No person in in the United States, shall on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.

If you go on and read the entire explanation after the original text it says "sexual harassment and sexual violence against STUDENTS"

No where does a single word say anything about harassment by an employee against his wife.

Unless Smith's wife is a student, I (and many many of us) dont see how TITLE 9 affects this case(WITH WHAT WE KNOW AT THIS TIME).
I will 'give' there might be something we dont know that could 'kick in' TITLE 9, but right now there is nothing that bring TITLE 9 in.
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