bigjer54
Great article on why pitch counts are becoming necessary, for HS baseball.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/how-a-157-pitch-game-in-kansas-explains-everything-wrong-with-youth-baseball-212918744.html

I was at a game this year, where a kid threw 152 pitches in 8.1 innings.
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db11
bigjer54 wrote:
Great article on why pitch counts are becoming necessary, for HS baseball.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/how-a-157-pitch-game-in-kansas-explains-everything-wrong-with-youth-baseball-212918744.html

I was at a game this year, where a kid threw 152 pitches in 8.1 innings.


And that doesn't include pre-game bullpen, warmups and throws to first!
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blade12
Pitch counts and days of rest seems like a no brainer. Of course you can never oversee a kid at his travel team practice during the HS season too. Players, parents and all involved need to be smarter and be willing to shut kids down. That's easier said than done especially if a parent and a coach disagree on how much is too much. For some kids that's 70 pitches, for others it could be 100.

I'll be curious how much of a role development of more pitchers and more pitching opportunities plays in any of this. That sounds like a good and desirable thing but then you have to ask if that aspect of this is very prominent then does the WIAA need to look at softball pitchers too?
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importfromil
db11 wrote:
bigjer54 wrote:
Great article on why pitch counts are becoming necessary, for HS baseball.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/how-a-157-pitch-game-in-kansas-explains-everything-wrong-with-youth-baseball-212918744.html

I was at a game this year, where a kid threw 152 pitches in 8.1 innings.


And that doesn't include pre-game bullpen, warmups and throws to first!

Exactly. I've said this for years; when someone is at 100 pitches in a game, they're likely closer to 200 after all the other throwing that's been done. Even just trying to count the "hard" throws they're probably over 150.
I'm not saying some things the WIAA does are wrong, ... I'm just saying, "I find it weird."
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highlightfilm
Pitch counts are necessary as we have too many coaches that unfortunately put winning today at the expense of a players future. We have one case in WI of a D1 recruit that threw 155+ pitches in a 10 inning game last year. This year, the same kid throws 340 pitches in 3 outings in 7 days. He's a two way player that also plays the field, so his arm is always being used. Not sure how the coach justifies that amount of pitching.

Over the years, I've seen many coaches of 10-14 yr olds throw kids multiple games in a weekend tournament or allow them to throw 90+ pitches per game. That's ridiculous. I would rather teach these kids the proper pitching mechanics, pre-game/post-game routine when they start playing the game, then reinforce that as they grow and mature. Pitch counts may then be less of an issue as they age if more coaches did this properly.
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smsnyder
WIAA has passed pitch count rules for High School (and Middle School down to 11 & 12's).

For 11-14 year olds, looks like they mirror the PitchSmart guidelines some of us have already been following for awhile. The high school rules are slightly more lax - allowing up to 100 pitches with a 3 day required rest. The PitchSmart has a max of 95 for 15-16 year olds and 105 for 17-18s, but 76+ requires 4 days rest instead of 3 & as a result, the breakpoints are a little different to account for an additional day. Nice to see the change.

It will be very interesting to see if this provides a further push for the youth coaches & tournaments. The Little League pitch count guidelines have been around for years & many have ignored them. USA Baseball & MLB formed PitchSmart a couple of years ago - and many are still ignoring them. Will the WIAA's adoption & the knowledge that it will no longer be optional in high school be enough?
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newmen
Overuse is an issue but I still believe that the biggest issues lie in mechanics and conditioning. My first ever varsity win as a high school freshman I threw 145 pitches in 7 innings. Played 5 years of college ball as a position player without pitching. Threw 49 innings of semi-pro ball this summer including 10 innings in two days at one point and a 158 pitch, 12 inning game complete game. No problems.

Learn how to throw properly and do some bicep curls (seriously) to strengthen the tendons and ligaments in your elbow and you will see a dramatic decline in arm issues.

High school baseball in Wisconsin needs better coaching, not better rules.
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smsnyder
newmen wrote:

High school baseball in Wisconsin needs better coaching, not better rules.


Sounds great. How?

Rules are one way to keep bad coaches in check. Getting rid of bad coaches isn't exactly easy at the high school level but it's practically impossible at the youth level (where a lot of the damage is done) since that's almost entirely driven by dads.
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blade12
I wasn't at the game and don't know where I could find a box score but I hear that the Bonduel pitcher had St Mary's (23-0 and #1 in D3) very limited the other day until he hit 100 pitches and had to be removed and then St Mary's scored late to win 4-3.



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formerwiacbaseballer
blade12 wrote:
I wasn't at the game and don't know where I could find a box score but I hear that the Bonduel pitcher had St Mary's (23-0 and #1 in D3) very limited the other day until he hit 100 pitches and had to be removed and then St Mary's scored late to win 4-3.

Incorrect....

Bonduel starting pitcher took the loss, giving up two runs in the fourth and one in the sixth, as St. Mary's fought back from a 3-0 deficit. St. Mary's then scored the winning run in the seventh for a 4-3 victory.

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/sports/2017/05/31/appleton-east-stops-appleton-north-baseball/102337632/

(Write-Up towards bottom of the page....)
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blade12
formerwiacbaseballer wrote:
blade12 wrote:
I wasn't at the game and don't know where I could find a box score but I hear that the Bonduel pitcher had St Mary's (23-0 and #1 in D3) very limited the other day until he hit 100 pitches and had to be removed and then St Mary's scored late to win 4-3.

Incorrect....

Bonduel starting pitcher took the loss, giving up two runs in the fourth and one in the sixth, as St. Mary's fought back from a 3-0 deficit. St. Mary's then scored the winning run in the seventh for a 4-3 victory.

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/sports/2017/05/31/appleton-east-stops-appleton-north-baseball/102337632/

(Write-Up towards bottom of the page....)


My source is telling me that the Bonduel SP left the game when he hit his max pitches. I don't know exactly when that was in the game. Maybe he was responsible for the eventual winning run and took the loss as noted in the box but the article doesn't mention that he gave up the 4th run and a different P finished the game and gave up the last hit of the game.
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formerwiacbaseballer
blade12 wrote:
formerwiacbaseballer wrote:
blade12 wrote:
I wasn't at the game and don't know where I could find a box score but I hear that the Bonduel pitcher had St Mary's (23-0 and #1 in D3) very limited the other day until he hit 100 pitches and had to be removed and then St Mary's scored late to win 4-3.

Incorrect....

Bonduel starting pitcher took the loss, giving up two runs in the fourth and one in the sixth, as St. Mary's fought back from a 3-0 deficit. St. Mary's then scored the winning run in the seventh for a 4-3 victory.

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/sports/2017/05/31/appleton-east-stops-appleton-north-baseball/102337632/

(Write-Up towards bottom of the page....)


My source is telling me that the Bonduel SP left the game when he hit his max pitches.
I don't know exactly when that was in the game. Maybe he was responsible for the eventual winning run and took the loss as noted in the box but the article doesn't mention that he gave up the 4th run and a different P finished the game and gave up the last hit of the game.

Which I don't doubt is accurate....

But to say the starting pitcher "limited St. Mary's the other day" might be a bit exaggerated, unless you are comparing it to other pitchers St. Mary's faced this season. At worst, he left the game with a tie score when he hit his pitch limit. It's not like St. Mary's mounted a furious rally when said pitcher exited the game or anything like that.
"Let's Play Two!!!"

Baseball is not a game that builds character, it is a game that reveals it.

"There are three types of baseball players: those who make things happen, those who watch it happen, and those who wonder what happened."
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blade12
formerwiacbaseballer wrote:
blade12 wrote:
formerwiacbaseballer wrote:
blade12 wrote:
I wasn't at the game and don't know where I could find a box score but I hear that the Bonduel pitcher had St Mary's (23-0 and #1 in D3) very limited the other day until he hit 100 pitches and had to be removed and then St Mary's scored late to win 4-3.

Incorrect....

Bonduel starting pitcher took the loss, giving up two runs in the fourth and one in the sixth, as St. Mary's fought back from a 3-0 deficit. St. Mary's then scored the winning run in the seventh for a 4-3 victory.

http://www.postcrescent.com/story/sports/2017/05/31/appleton-east-stops-appleton-north-baseball/102337632/

(Write-Up towards bottom of the page....)


My source is telling me that the Bonduel SP left the game when he hit his max pitches.
I don't know exactly when that was in the game. Maybe he was responsible for the eventual winning run and took the loss as noted in the box but the article doesn't mention that he gave up the 4th run and a different P finished the game and gave up the last hit of the game.

Which I don't doubt is accurate....

But to say the starting pitcher "limited St. Mary's the other day" might be a bit exaggerated, unless you are comparing it to other pitchers St. Mary's faced this season. At worst, he left the game with a tie score when he hit his pitch limit. It's not like St. Mary's mounted a furious rally when said pitcher exited the game or anything like that.


"Limited" was the the word used by my source. Just glancing at their scores this year I could see how 3 runs in 6IP is limiting for them. They did have a couple of low scoring close games but most were not.

I brought it up only to note that without the new pitch count rules the outcome may have been different but we will never know.

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