tiercel
Not so long ago four 3 - 2 team played four 2 - 3 team in the WIAC. The result could have been an 8-way tie. Those days seem like a century ago on a different planet today. A friend of friend sent me this well thought out analysis of why parity in the WIAC has gone the way of the dinosaur:

Interesting discussion on the d3 football site and I would like your opinions. The question I asked was how do you explain that, barring a major upset, the 4 west wiac teams will go 0-16 against the top 4 this year? To summarize the responses- the d2 north central conference died after the 2007 season-the Dakota schools went 1aa and the others went to d2 nsic, which had started to upgrade significantly around 2000. Lacrosse, for example, had very good success yearly vs Winona until 1998 ( the same year uwrf hammered bemidji 45-14). Winona then won 4 straight and the series stopped. The Dakota schools started offering a number of players from the upper Midwest who would have been d2 stars who became 1aa players ( the stars- players distinction makes sense to me).

This created a void in the nsic d2 schools. They intensified recruiting of kids who became d2 players who would have likely been d3 stars. Many of these were sucked in by the ego of the $500-1000 SCHOLARSHIP. And many of these schools had raised more scholarship money. Many of them were/ are Wisconsin kids who formerly would have gone to wiac schools. Umd, St. Cloud, Winona, Mankato, and Concordia St. Paul list a total of 166 wis players on their 2015. Website rosters. This has affected the 4 western schools much more than the other 4, who still have more d2 type players who want to play on winners close to home. Whitewater and Oshkosh are obvious examples.

Other issues were raised but not discussed much, such as institutional support or lack of same,eg- uwrf. An example is Larry terry being the only coach on staff at Uwl when he retired. Another issue-quality of coaching. Nielsen and hoffner did quite well at eau Claire and the guy at Uwl will likely have his 3 rd straight 3-7 season in spite of having 4 coaches on staff plus upgraded facilities, or so said a Uwl fan. Stout is poor. And look how leiopold and cerroni awoke those sleeping Giants.

Lastly-other wiac sports have seen a number of former would be d3 stars become d2 players. One mentioned the year Oshkosh baseball had five players drafted- would not happen now. They would all have scholarships somewhere. Kids in all sports get so much more early exposure now.
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coachw12
With 2/3s of diplomas now going to women one can see how the decline of men on college campuses has affected schools. UWRF has a 39% male to 61% female ratio. When UWRF was good the ratio was the opposite thus with less males on campus UWRF has less stud athletes to draw from.
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innercityivan
coachw12 wrote:
With 2/3s of diplomas now going to women one can see how the decline of men on college campuses has affected schools. UWRF has a 39% male to 61% female ratio. When UWRF was good the ratio was the opposite thus with less males on campus UWRF has less stud athletes to draw from.


You are confusing HS with College.
Even though you may not sigh a LOI, athletes are recruited at the D3 level. It's rare for the random kid to "walk on" the sports team.... player-coach relationships are formed before the kid steps foot on campus.

I completely agree with the EGO of the $500-$1000 scholarship. Minnesota is sucking up the talent from the western side of the state....even though tuition at the predominately private schools cost more than the WIAC. (I believe reciprocity went away?)

Exposure plays a part here, WI is predominately rural and some of the coaching may be "substandard" and these kids flew under the radar. A lot of times WIAC schools found diamonds in the rough. Now with all the exposure camps, others are seeing the potential and scooping them up.
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formerwiacbaseballer
tiercel wrote:
. The question I asked was how do you explain that, barring a major upset, the 4 west wiac teams will go 0-16 against the top 4 this year?

Not going to happen this year..... Stout beats Stevens Point 34-31 today!!!!
"Let's Play Two!!!"

Baseball is not a game that builds character, it is a game that reveals it.

"There are three types of baseball players: those who make things happen, those who watch it happen, and those who wonder what happened."
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aperson
Those years with parity are the rarity. It has usually been a conference where only a few teams could play with the top team.
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bhsblackhawks
Well, as a student at UWEC, I can say that there is very little support for the football team (or really any sport except hockey) on campus. I'm a huge football fan. I try to make it to as many high school games as possible (about 8 this year) and I watch football all day Saturday and Sunday on TV. But during my 5 years at UWEC, I've been to one half of a football game. The environment is awful, and it's pretty boring watching them get blown out. I'm even friends with a few guys on the team, and I have no desire to go watch them. Except for a couple girls that are dating/have dated football players and a couple guys who are roommates of football players, I don't think I know a single student that consistently goes to the football games here. Most of the people I know don't even go to the homecoming game, they just continue partying right through it. I'm actually surprised if someone tells me they're going to go watch the game. 95% of the time if someone is going to the game, they stay until halftime to watch the band, and then they leave.

Now, the cause of the games being so brutal to watch? I'm going to say that sub-par talent is a big part of that. I don't think I was that great of a high school football player, but I got recruited to play at a few of the western WIAC schools. So many kids from this area of the state head over to D2 Minnesota schools. Combine that with a lack of institutional support and promotion, and you get an environment in which it's tough to put a good team on the field, and it's even tougher to create a good environment to play in, which causes even less kids to want to play here. I mean, there are guys who play here who I remember not even being stand-out high school players.

I don't really pay that much attention so this could be wrong, but it seems as if there has been a shift in EC's recruiting lately to focus more on kids from the Twin Cities and especially the Madison, Fox Valley, Milwaukee, and Chicago areas. If that is really case, it might be the only solution that works, given the rural schools shrinking and the top athletes getting scooped up by Minnesota schools.
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innercityivan
bhsblackhawks wrote:
Well, as a student at UWEC, I can say that there is very little support for the football team (or really any sport except hockey) on campus. I'm a huge football fan. I try to make it to as many high school games as possible (about 8 this year) and I watch football all day Saturday and Sunday on TV. But during my 5 years at UWEC, I've been to one half of a football game. The environment is awful, and it's pretty boring watching them get blown out. I'm even friends with a few guys on the team, and I have no desire to go watch them. Except for a couple girls that are dating/have dated football players and a couple guys who are roommates of football players, I don't think I know a single student that consistently goes to the football games here. Most of the people I know don't even go to the homecoming game, they just continue partying right through it. I'm actually surprised if someone tells me they're going to go watch the game. 95% of the time if someone is going to the game, they stay until halftime to watch the band, and then they leave.

Now, the cause of the games being so brutal to watch? I'm going to say that sub-par talent is a big part of that. I don't think I was that great of a high school football player, but I got recruited to play at a few of the western WIAC schools. So many kids from this area of the state head over to D2 Minnesota schools. Combine that with a lack of institutional support and promotion, and you get an environment in which it's tough to put a good team on the field, and it's even tougher to create a good environment to play in, which causes even less kids to want to play here. I mean, there are guys who play here who I remember not even being stand-out high school players.

I don't really pay that much attention so this could be wrong, but it seems as if there has been a shift in EC's recruiting lately to focus more on kids from the Twin Cities and especially the Madison, Fox Valley, Milwaukee, and Chicago areas. If that is really case, it might be the only solution that works, given the rural schools shrinking and the top athletes getting scooped up by Minnesota schools.


Marilyn Skrivseth Killed the UWEC athletic program in the late 90s. How she got into the UWEC hall of fame perplexes me
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sam20
UWEC grad here. The entire athletic department went down hill in 2001, the year after the men's basketball team lost that D3 national title. Kilgallon came in as AD, east coast guy, had no clue about the traditions here, refused to consider bringing back baseball, everything just spiraled, no one even knew it was happening. All of the sudden people were like, how are we finishing 4th or worse in football and men's and women's basketball? But it was too late, kids coming in didn't know who Ken Anderson was, didn't know who Lisa Stone was, didn't care. Athletic history started to become forgotten fast, the university became more academic, newer buildings went up, kids weren't coming to play football or basketball, they were coming to grab a coffee, log in up in Davies or Centenial and listen to Bon Iver. It became Hipster State university instead of Houlian university. I have to go, I think I just saw Chuckie Graves ghost in the new basketball lounge.
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dfnewburry
Its all about recruiting , I am sorry so many want to blame the admins but if you watch the teams that are bottom dwellers in the WIAC regardless of sport , they have sub par talent and that falls on the coaches who recruited them .












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hornet1188
tiercel-

I agree. I've had a similar theory for about 10-12 years now.

I do think that a couple of WIAC schools have also fallen victim to some administrators that have not had concern for the culture of the school they've come into. UWL and UWEC have fallen victim to that for sure. Both have proud sports traditions that many current students would have no clue about.

I grew up watching WSUC basketball on once or twice a year local TV, the UWL - UWEC game and usually a UWEC vs. UWSP game. Those were teams that would rival many scholarship schools (then and today). Great players, coaches, and teams.

The old UWL football teams were right there with the current UWW, UWO teams, and maybe more dominant.

Like some say, get the right coach, maybe the glory can be rebuilt.
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baker18
Its not just uwec outside of uww the wiac lacks attendance and that is shocking. Im a uwo graduate and have watched the rise of their football over the last 5 years. The thing that shocks me is no matter how good they are they average about 3000 a game. Take this year for example when they were #10 they hosted #1 whitewater. The biggest game of the year and you would think they would sell out. The announced attendance was 2800 for that game which is atrocious. Does any other school feel this way. Maybe its a division 3 thing.
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formerwiacbaseballer
baker18 wrote:
Its not just uwec outside of uww the wiac lacks attendance and that is shocking. Im a uwo graduate and have watched the rise of their football over the last 5 years. The thing that shocks me is no matter how good they are they average about 3000 a game. Take this year for example when they were #10 they hosted #1 whitewater. The biggest game of the year and you would think they would sell out. The announced attendance was 2800 for that game which is atrocious. Does any other school feel this way. Maybe its a division 3 thing.

Not a chance.... Would be willing to bet they didn't draw for 3000 a single game this year to date, much less average 3000... Heck, outside of Whitewater (defending National Champion) and Stevens Point (proximity) I'd bet they didn't even draw 2000 for a game.
"Let's Play Two!!!"

Baseball is not a game that builds character, it is a game that reveals it.

"There are three types of baseball players: those who make things happen, those who watch it happen, and those who wonder what happened."
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baker18
formerwiacbaseballer wrote:
baker18 wrote:
Its not just uwec outside of uww the wiac lacks attendance and that is shocking. Im a uwo graduate and have watched the rise of their football over the last 5 years. The thing that shocks me is no matter how good they are they average about 3000 a game. Take this year for example when they were #10 they hosted #1 whitewater. The biggest game of the year and you would think they would sell out. The announced attendance was 2800 for that game which is atrocious. Does any other school feel this way. Maybe its a division 3 thing.

Not a chance.... Would be willing to bet they didn't draw for 3000 a single game this year to date, much less average 3000... Heck, outside of Whitewater (defending National Champion) and Stevens Point (proximity) I'd bet they didn't even draw 2000 for a game.



Whatever the average my point is no matter how good they are they still cant draw. Outside of whitewater the entire conference can't draw well and i dont knoe why
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mickjagger
tiercel wrote:
Not so long ago four 3 - 2 team played four 2 - 3 team in the WIAC. The result could have been an 8-way tie. Those days seem like a century ago on a different planet today. A friend of friend sent me this well thought out analysis of why parity in the WIAC has gone the way of the dinosaur:

Interesting discussion on the d3 football site and I would like your opinions. The question I asked was how do you explain that, barring a major upset, the 4 west wiac teams will go 0-16 against the top 4 this year? To summarize the responses- the d2 north central conference died after the 2007 season-the Dakota schools went 1aa and the others went to d2 nsic, which had started to upgrade significantly around 2000. Lacrosse, for example, had very good success yearly vs Winona until 1998 ( the same year uwrf hammered bemidji 45-14). Winona then won 4 straight and the series stopped. The Dakota schools started offering a number of players from the upper Midwest who would have been d2 stars who became 1aa players ( the stars- players distinction makes sense to me).

This created a void in the nsic d2 schools. They intensified recruiting of kids who became d2 players who would have likely been d3 stars. Many of these were sucked in by the ego of the $500-1000 SCHOLARSHIP. And many of these schools had raised more scholarship money. Many of them were/ are Wisconsin kids who formerly would have gone to wiac schools. Umd, St. Cloud, Winona, Mankato, and Concordia St. Paul list a total of 166 wis players on their 2015. Website rosters. This has affected the 4 western schools much more than the other 4, who still have more d2 type players who want to play on winners close to home. Whitewater and Oshkosh are obvious examples.

Other issues were raised but not discussed much, such as institutional support or lack of same,eg- uwrf. An example is Larry terry being the only coach on staff at Uwl when he retired. Another issue-quality of coaching. Nielsen and hoffner did quite well at eau Claire and the guy at Uwl will likely have his 3 rd straight 3-7 season in spite of having 4 coaches on staff plus upgraded facilities, or so said a Uwl fan. Stout is poor. And look how leiopold and cerroni awoke those sleeping Giants.

Lastly-other wiac sports have seen a number of former would be d3 stars become d2 players. One mentioned the year Oshkosh baseball had five players drafted- would not happen now. They would all have scholarships somewhere. Kids in all sports get so much more early exposure now.

You raise many valid points & concerns, Tiercel, particularly the domino effects of D-2 and 1-AA recruiting in northern & western Wisconsin.

If the WI state education budget allowed for the WIAC schools to go D-2 by allowing scholarship money, I guarantee the majority of those 166 WI kids on the UMD, Mankato, Winona & St Cloud rosters would stay home and in no time, the WIAC schools would experience more parity & balance and would be on par with the Minnesota & Michigan schools as D-2 powers.

However, don't your breath for any extra money for athletic scholarships in the WIAC. As it stands, virtually every school is eliminating or drastically cutting back a varsity sport or two in an attempt to enable their respective schools to comply with budget cutbacks authored by the current state government in Madison.

As it is now, Whitewater especially, and to a lesser degree, Platteville & Oshkosh, are attracting the same athlete from the Milwaukee, Chicago, Fox Valley & southern WI areas to play D-3 football, that are leaving northern & western WI to play D-2 ball in Minnesota, and even 1-AA in North and South Dakota.
Wisconsin Sports Network Hall of Fame Inductee, 2012
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tiercel
Its all about recruiting , I am sorry so many want to blame the admins but if you watch the teams that are bottom dwellers in the WIAC regardless of sport , they have sub par talent and that falls on the coaches who recruited them .

Point of fact, the administration has as much or more influence on an athletic program than its coaching staff over time. For example, UWW and UWO have full-time counselors who do nothing but advise and oversee student progress academically. Guess what, many of those counselors are also athletic coaches (and advising some of their own athletes as it happens). Where does the administration come in? At other schools, the bigwigs say, "No student counseling staff warranted! Instead, professors will teach and advise as part of their work load." Another example: every coach at UWRF had their pay and hours cut (i.e., no summer school work) recently. The AD? Did not sacrifice a penny. Wanna go out and work your butt off for that guy.? A few WIAC school have coaches working in Admissions Offices. At others, there is no way in hell a "jock" is allowed to hold such positions. Who do you think makes those decisions?
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