blade12

 Is what goes on at these national camps games? 11  votes

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 Yes 8 votes
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What am I missing that WI kids attending some of the National All Star Camps aren't in violation of the WIAA rule below?

The WIAA rule:
e. All-StAR conteStS
[h]Athletes with remaining high school eligibility may not participate in all-star contests.[/h] During the school year, a school, including its administrators, athletic director and coaches shall not become involved directly or indirectly with any kind of all-star or similar contest that involves students with remaining eligibility. [h]An all-star team is one where participants are chosen on the basis of individual accomplishment or reputation.[/h] An underclassmen becomes ineligible in a sport for a maximum of one year from the date of last offense for participation in an all-star game or similar activity. A senior who violates this rule forfeits all remaining high school eligibility in the same specific sport as the all-star event. Violation of this rule results in loss of eligibility for the remainder of the season. (BL ? Art. IV, Sect. 1 & RE ? Art. VI, Sect. 3)

The Pangos Camp clearly states, "The event is an invitation-only event and only top nationally ranked players will be invited." http://www.fullctpress.n...-all-american-camp.html

Is that not selecting kids based on accomplishments and reputation?
Quote 0 0
sportsdude112000
I may be wrong, but the second line says "During the School year". Since most of these camps happen during the summer, are they deemed ok and players are allowed to attend without the consequences from the WIAA?
Quote 0 0
blade12
sportsdude112000 wrote:
I may be wrong, but the second line says "During the School year". Since most of these camps happen during the summer, are they deemed ok and players are allowed to attend without the consequences from the WIAA?


I read that as an entirely independent statement clarifying the role of schools, Admin, AD, and coaches during the school year.
Quote 0 0
traviswilson
A camp is not an All-Star Game.
The Packers/Badgers/Brewers are like your children; you don't love them because they're good, you love them because they're yours.
10/22/2010 -- 598,210 pageviews for WSN
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Quote 0 0
johnwall1
traviswilson wrote:
A camp is not an All-Star Game.


So a 7th or 8th grade kid who's Middle School is part of the WIAA (Yes, some of us still are), who runs cross country or track for that middle school, CAN NOT run in a local 5k or they are ineligible. A 7th or 8th grade kid who plays on the middle school football team CAN NOT participate in a Punt/Pass/Kick competition or they are ineligible for middle school football. Our AD's stand in front of us each year and go through these rules.

BUT, Tyler Herro or Jordan McCabe, clearly WIAA athletes, can go and play in All-Star "Camps"? Like there is no 5 vs 5 at those camps (that's nearly ALL it is).

Please help me understand.
Quote 0 0
traviswilson
johnwall1 wrote:
traviswilson wrote:
A camp is not an All-Star Game.


So a 7th or 8th grade kid who's Middle School is part of the WIAA (Yes, some of us still are), who runs cross country or track for that middle school, CAN NOT run in a local 5k or they are ineligible. A 7th or 8th grade kid who plays on the middle school football team CAN NOT participate in a Punt/Pass/Kick competition or they are ineligible for middle school football. Our AD's stand in front of us each year and go through these rules.

BUT, Tyler Herro or Jordan McCabe, clearly WIAA athletes, can go and play in All-Star "Camps"? Like there is no 5 vs 5 at those camps (that's nearly ALL it is).

Please help me understand.

The things you reference are IN-SEASON rules. If a cross country kid wants to run a 5K in the spring, they can with no limits (unless in track also).

Though recall that in 2015, the member schools passed an amendment that allows students to participate in skills contests IN SEASON, as long as there is school approval and no school coach is involved.

There is a difference between a camp setting where players will expectedly participate in live competition that would involve full team settings, and an out-and-out All-Star Game.
The Packers/Badgers/Brewers are like your children; you don't love them because they're good, you love them because they're yours.
10/22/2010 -- 598,210 pageviews for WSN
Follow me on Twitter: @travisWSN
Quote 0 0
blade12
traviswilson wrote:
A camp is not an All-Star Game.


Final day of the 2016 Pangos Camp:

Sunday June 5, 2016

8:00am-8:45am Breakfast
8:45am Depart (via bus) to Cerritos College
9:30am - 10:15am Camp games ? 3 courts (ACC Round 4)
10:15am - 11:00am Camp games - 3 courts (Pac-10 Round 4)
11:00am-11:45pm Lunch at Gym
11:45am - 12:00pm Announcement of All-Star Teams/Final Remarks
12:00pm - 1:15pm [h] "Cream of the Crop" Top 50 Game[/h]
1:15pm - 2:15pm [h]"Cream of Crop" Top 25 Game[/h]
2:00pm - 5:00pm Campers depart/transport out-of-state campers to airport

So the Cream of the Crop games are not games??
Quote 0 0
coach40
blade12 wrote:
traviswilson wrote:
A camp is not an All-Star Game.


Final day of the 2016 Pangos Camp:

Sunday June 5, 2016

8:00am-8:45am Breakfast
8:45am Depart (via bus) to Cerritos College
9:30am - 10:15am Camp games ? 3 courts (ACC Round 4)
10:15am - 11:00am Camp games - 3 courts (Pac-10 Round 4)
11:00am-11:45pm Lunch at Gym
11:45am - 12:00pm Announcement of All-Star Teams/Final Remarks
12:00pm - 1:15pm [h] "Cream of the Crop" Top 50 Game[/h]
1:15pm - 2:15pm [h]"Cream of Crop" Top 25 Game[/h]
2:00pm - 5:00pm Campers depart/transport out-of-state campers to airport

So the Cream of the Crop games are not games??



No matter how we try to slice this there are too many people that will create their own idea and loop holes around rules.
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Quote 0 0
blade12
coach40 wrote:
blade12 wrote:
traviswilson wrote:
A camp is not an All-Star Game.


Final day of the 2016 Pangos Camp:

Sunday June 5, 2016

8:00am-8:45am Breakfast
8:45am Depart (via bus) to Cerritos College
9:30am - 10:15am Camp games ? 3 courts (ACC Round 4)
10:15am - 11:00am Camp games - 3 courts (Pac-10 Round 4)
11:00am-11:45pm Lunch at Gym
11:45am - 12:00pm Announcement of All-Star Teams/Final Remarks
12:00pm - 1:15pm [h] "Cream of the Crop" Top 50 Game[/h]
1:15pm - 2:15pm [h]"Cream of Crop" Top 25 Game[/h]
2:00pm - 5:00pm Campers depart/transport out-of-state campers to airport

So the Cream of the Crop games are not games??



No matter how we try to slice this there are too many people that will create their own idea and loop holes around rules.


Is it really that simple? Just don't call it an all star game and you can do what you want?

EDIT - Although I notice that at 11:45am-12:00pm the "Announcement of All Star Teams" but then when those teams play right after they are announced they aren't All Star teams. Huuummmm.
Quote 0 0
blade12
I gave this some thought over the weekend and just can't bring myself to the side of because this is a "camp" those "games" aren't technically games. Everything they do is considered a game by the WIAA; they wear matching uniforms, they keep time and score, they have refs, they even keep stats for the "games" played during the week.

If doing what they do is not a game then any HS team or AAU team could get together at any time of the year and play under "it's a camp" because there was also instruction being given.

What if 4 AAU teams organize a "Christmas Camp" during the HS bball season, bring in some instructors run some drills and then split their teams off and play a round robin schedule. If that's not games there would be no WIAA rule against doing that.

I've been a stickler on threads about the WIAA rules and that they are written in an unclear or confusing way. I'd love a more thorough explanation of this one and how and why exactly the WIAA rule does not apply.
Quote 0 0
db11
blade12 wrote:
I gave this some thought over the weekend and just can't bring myself to the side of because this is a "camp" those "games" aren't technically games. Everything they do is considered a game by the WIAA; they wear matching uniforms, they keep time and score, they have refs, they even keep stats for the "games" played during the week.

If doing what they do is not a game then any HS team or AAU team could get together at any time of the year and play under "it's a camp" because there was also instruction being given.

What if 4 AAU teams organize a "Christmas Camp" during the HS bball season, bring in some instructors run some drills and then split their teams off and play a round robin schedule. If that's not games there would be no WIAA rule against doing that.

I've been a stickler on threads about the WIAA rules and that they are written in an unclear or confusing way. I'd love a more thorough explanation of this one and how and why exactly the WIAA rule does not apply.


Is that because they were originally written poorly or unclear, or does that have more to do with the constant evolvement of the 12 months a year, single-sport cycle?

The changes in youth athletics, even in just the last decade, are staggering. It's tough to keep up.

Not that anyone thinks the WIAA has great foresight anyway, but these things aren't always the easiest to see coming in any specific way.
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Quote 0 0
blade12
db11 wrote:
blade12 wrote:
I gave this some thought over the weekend and just can't bring myself to the side of because this is a "camp" those "games" aren't technically games. Everything they do is considered a game by the WIAA; they wear matching uniforms, they keep time and score, they have refs, they even keep stats for the "games" played during the week.

If doing what they do is not a game then any HS team or AAU team could get together at any time of the year and play under "it's a camp" because there was also instruction being given.

What if 4 AAU teams organize a "Christmas Camp" during the HS bball season, bring in some instructors run some drills and then split their teams off and play a round robin schedule. If that's not games there would be no WIAA rule against doing that.

I've been a stickler on threads about the WIAA rules and that they are written in an unclear or confusing way. I'd love a more thorough explanation of this one and how and why exactly the WIAA rule does not apply.


Is that because they were originally written poorly or unclear, or does that have more to do with the constant evolvement of the 12 months a year, single-sport cycle?

The changes in youth athletics, even in just the last decade, are staggering. It's tough to keep up.

Not that anyone thinks the WIAA has great foresight anyway, but these things aren't always the easiest to see coming in any specific way.


I think many are written in a vague and unclear way. Is that done so on purpose??? Sort of seems like it to me. Gives them a lot of wiggle room.

Anything that needs to be changed, clarified or expanded due to changes in youth or HS sport "norms" can easily be amended. It may take a specific situation to occur but with leadership those loophole situations can be addressed by membership within a year.

Quote 0 0
gstacy
Travis can you clear this up?
Quote 0 0
traviswilson
gstacy wrote:
Travis can you clear this up?

I already did. The Pangos Camp isn't an All-Star Game.
The Packers/Badgers/Brewers are like your children; you don't love them because they're good, you love them because they're yours.
10/22/2010 -- 598,210 pageviews for WSN
Follow me on Twitter: @travisWSN
Quote 0 0
blade12
db11 wrote:
Haven't really weighed in here, but I have a hard time getting riled up about players attending a camp, and then splitting up and playing games against each other in June.

At its core, I wouldn't call those All-Star Games, any more than any AAU game could be considered such, but everybody loves their semantics.

How many and what other rules that don't interest any particular person at the time can we ignore?

Personally, I think that what a kid does on his own time is his/her business and so if on a Sunday even during the HS bball season when the kid doesn't have any HS bball team activities if he/she wants to go play a game with a CYO or an AAU team they should be allowed to do so. But that is not the rule.

I didn't ask about the select AAU teams but would agree that they too may be in violation of this rule. It might depend on if they hold tryouts for anyone interested or if they just handpick their teams.

If the rule is not going to be enforced or is obsolete then remove it from the rules.
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